Your thoughts on 2 tortoise owners.

[ascott]

The extreme animal-rights people are definitely an enemy to people who take good care of their animals. And I agree that a tortoise that can free range in a Secure backyard in the proper climate etc. with the properset up is definitely the best also. You're not the first one to tell me I'm full of BS, but that's alright.

I believe there is confusion here....who exactly decides who qualifies as taking good care of their animals? What is that group? What is that universal scale for right? You see---there are very different ideas and therefore for all people who care about the well being of animals to be labeled "extreme animal-rights" or "rightists" is just as worrisome as the very people being accused...

Also, I never said you are full of BS, I said that sorely repeated statement is....all of this business of "new ways" vs "old ways" is silly...period.

 

[ascott]

The extreme animal-rights people are definitely an enemy to people who take good care of their animals. And I agree that a tortoise that can free range in a Secure backyard in the proper climate etc. with the properset up is definitely the best also. You're not the first one to tell me I'm full of BS, but that's alright.

In addition, there is NO ONE on this forum that should ever be considered a professional on the care of tortoise...there just is not..there is a collection of some very good pieces of information....some old some new and for all things "old school" to be dismissed--is truly an ignorant movement...in my opinion that is.

 

[leigti]

Not all animal welfare groups are extreme, but I don't know how anybody can look at PETA and not say that they are extreme. There are some good animal-rights people out there that actually have common sense and brain cells. But I do not consider that group one of them. and no I guess you didn't say I was full of BS. and I don't think that all of the "old ways" were bad either. But I think some of the new Waze can be incorporated also. You don't have to throw out the old just to do the new, you can do a combination of both.but when somebody admits that they were not taking good care of their animals based on the knowledge they had previously then I think it is safe to say that some of the "always" were not the best.

 

[ascott]

Not all animal welfare groups are extreme, but I don't know how anybody can look at PETA and not say that they are extreme. There are some good animal-rights people out there that actually have common sense and brain cells. But I do not consider that group one of them. and no I guess you didn't say I was full of BS. and I don't think that all of the "old ways" were bad either. But I think some of the new Waze can be incorporated also. You don't have to throw out the old just to do the new, you can do a combination of both.but when somebody admits that they were not taking good care of their animals based on the knowledge they had previously then I think it is safe to say that some of the "always" were not the best.

I personally am not a big fan of PETA---but that is one group and not representative of all animal rights groups...

.but when somebody admits that they were not taking good care of their animals based on the knowledge they had previously

This happens now, even with all of the "new" information shared on this very forum....this is the hazards in play whenever a wild animal is kept in a forced captive environment...just is, even if one does not like to admit that is true....again, my feelings and nothing more....

 

[jeffjeff]

whether we agree or not the animals belong to the owners and it up to them what they do with them and we have no say in the matter. personally i would not paint a tort, i like to see animals the way they are naturally coloured shell, scares and all. you can try to educate people but if they don't want to learn then there's nothing you can do.

i have to comment about the animal rightists they truly are the enemy of every one.
in my opinion they all want to go walk off a cliff. we get a few of them in cumbria as there's alot fox and pheasant hunters. a story that made the papers a while back tell you exactly what type of folk they are, it was a few years ago now. a gang of them where out looking to disrupt a hunt but couldn't find them. they happened up on a couple folk fishing for salmon and decided to pick on them, it was a pregnant lady and her dad or grandad i cant mind which now. when they refused to stop fishing the animal rightists stole the fishing tackle from them and threw them both in the river. the lady went in to premature labor and almost lost the baby due to them not being able to get hospital quickly as the scum had slashed the tires of their vehicle. it was a random dog walker that took them both to the hospital. thankfully they where caught and 2 were jailed the rest got various fines and community service.

 

[WithLisa]

i have to comment about the animal rightists they truly are the enemy of every one.
in my opinion they all want to go walk off a cliff. we get a few of them in cumbria as there's alot fox and pheasant hunters. a story that made the papers a while back tell you exactly what type of folk they are, it was a few years ago now. a gang of them where out looking to disrupt a hunt but couldn't find them. they happened up on a couple folk fishing for salmon and decided to pick on them, it was a pregnant lady and her dad or grandad i cant mind which now. when they refused to stop fishing the animal rightists stole the fishing tackle from them and threw them both in the river. the lady went in to premature labor and almost lost the baby due to them not being able to get hospital quickly as the scum had slashed the tires of their vehicle. it was a random dog walker that took them both to the hospital. thankfully they where caught and 2 were jailed the rest got various fines and community service.

Recently I was picked on by a group of drunk motorcar mechanics, fortunately I managed to run away. So are motorcar mechanics everyone's enemy too?

I would call myself an animal rightist. I don't really like to see animals in captivity, I have taken in a lot of abused or stray pets, because they can't survive on their own, but I would never buy from a breeder.
I stand by my opinion, but I have never insulted or hurt other people knowingly. Please explain, why am I your enemy?

 

[keepergale]

Recently I was picked on by a group of drunk motorcar mechanics, fortunately I managed to run away. So are motorcar mechanics everyone's enemy too?

I would call myself an animal rightist. I don't really like to see animals in captivity, I have taken in a lot of abused or stray pets, because they can't survive on their own, but I would never buy from a breeder.
I stand by my opinion, but I have never insulted or hurt other people knowingly. Please explain, why am I your enemy?

Being picked on by a group of drunken mechanics is an unfortunate incident but they were not acting on their stated goals. Incidents of "violence" by activist is consistent with their stated ideology.
Of course you have a right to your opinion but even a peaceful opinion directly opposite of "our" own would still be an enemy. Votes, written opinion, swaying others to your side is certainly an opposing force more dangerous to our hobby/lifestyle than a couple thuggish acts.

 

[keepergale]

I do not consider my self a animal rights activist. I do however consider my self a conservationist. Coming from my view point it seems to me the place to buy a tortoise or turtle is most definitely from a breeder.

 

[Tom]

Recently I was picked on by a group of drunk motorcar mechanics, fortunately I managed to run away. So are motorcar mechanics everyone's enemy too?

I would call myself an animal rightist. I don't really like to see animals in captivity, I have taken in a lot of abused or stray pets, because they can't survive on their own, but I would never buy from a breeder.
I stand by my opinion, but I have never insulted or hurt other people knowingly. Please explain, why am I your enemy?

The publicly stated goals of the current crop of animal rights groups is in direct opposition to YOUR goals and aspirations as a tortoise keeper. That is why they are YOUR enemy as well as mine. When jeffjeff referred to "everyone" I believe he was lumping all of us pet keepers together.

I don't know how you define "Animal Rightist", but if you truly were one, you would be going against your own views by keeping tortoises or any other pet. Or by eating chicken or fish. Or by wearing leather shoes, etc...

Further, PETA is listed as a terrorist organization by the FBI over here. Don't take my word for it. Look it up. I don't believe someone with a love of tortoises who wants to see them cared for properly is an animal rightist. I believe the you, like any decent human being, should be in favor of animal welfare (meaning being a responsible animal owner and taking care of animals in your care properly in every way), but not in favor of saying that every ant on the ground has all the same rights as every human being walking around today.

Do you wish to clarify your stance? I find that many people who claim to be in favor of animal rights don't really know what that means. I find that they want animals to be cared for and not abused, and that they have the best of intentions, but that they don't truly understand the group, or the intentions of the group, that they have aligned themselves with.

 

[Yvonne G]

How on earth did a thread about a couple of mis-informed tortoise keepers and their painted and mixed-specie tortoises turn into an animal rights debate?

I'm watching you, soup people!

 

[phebe121]

I cant believe you wouldnt try to give them the best life.possible you chose them they didnt say they wanted to be owned why whould people do this

 

[Yvonne G]

I cant believe you wouldnt try to give them the best life.possible you chose them they didnt say they wanted to be owned why would people do this

I think that's the point. These people think they ARE giving their tortoises a good life.

 

[phebe121]

I think that's the point. These people think they ARE giving their tortoises a good life.

They need some research and to join here its not rocket science not to paint a tort.

 

[WithLisa]

I don't know how you define "Animal Rightist", but if you truly were one, you would be going against your own views by keeping tortoises or any other pet. Or by eating chicken or fish. Or by wearing leather shoes, etc...

I got my torts from acquaintances that bought them on a whim. I can't return them to the wild, so they'll have to live a life in captivity and I can only try to give them the best care. Of course I love all my pets, but I wish they could decide on their own if they want to live in captivity.
I don't buy meat for myself and I don't own leather shoes (even though I don't think it's wrong to wear leather, as long as so many animals are slaughtered it's better to put the skin to use than throw it away).

Further, PETA is listed as a terrorist organization by the FBI over here. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

I don't know much about PETA, but I don't doubt that.
In Austria we have the organization "VGT". Maybe they are a bit extreme (like running around in the nude to demonstrate against fur coats), but always peaceful and polite. Nonetheless some of the members were arrested as terrorists and imprisoned for years without any proof, they were accused of "being members of an organization", that was enough.
Since that I'm not sure anymore if Austria is really a state of law.

 

[ascott]

whether we agree or not the animals belong to the owners and it up to them what they do with them and we have no say in the matter. personally i would not paint a tort, i like to see animals the way they are naturally coloured shell, scares and all. you can try to educate people but if they don't want to learn then there's nothing you can do.

i have to comment about the animal rightists they truly are the enemy of every one.
in my opinion they all want to go walk off a cliff. we get a few of them in cumbria as there's alot fox and pheasant hunters. a story that made the papers a while back tell you exactly what type of folk they are, it was a few years ago now. a gang of them where out looking to disrupt a hunt but couldn't find them. they happened up on a couple folk fishing for salmon and decided to pick on them, it was a pregnant lady and her dad or grandad i cant mind which now. when they refused to stop fishing the animal rightists stole the fishing tackle from them and threw them both in the river. the lady went in to premature labor and almost lost the baby due to them not being able to get hospital quickly as the scum had slashed the tires of their vehicle. it was a random dog walker that took them both to the hospital. thankfully they where caught and 2 were jailed the rest got various fines and community service.

This is truly an unfortunate situation....as I teach my son, you will have aholes in every group of people and organizations (priests, teachers, police officers and the like) and to understand that the actions of a few do not define the whole....so, in this case I believe you had aggressive people who were first aholes and then put the cap of activists on ....not the other way around....there will always be people who are naturally bad that hide within the crowds waiting for a reason to act out....as good as we humans can be is equally as bad as we can be....in my opinion.

 

[Tom]

I got my torts from acquaintances that bought them on a whim. I can't return them to the wild, so they'll have to live a life in captivity and I can only try to give them the best care. Of course I love all my pets, but I wish they could decide on their own if they want to live in captivity.
I don't buy meat for myself and I don't own leather shoes (even though I don't think it's wrong to wear leather, as long as so many animals are slaughtered it's better to put the skin to use than throw it away).

Its becoming clear that you and I don't define animal rights the same way. You seem like a nice person who conscientiously is trying to do the right thing, being kind to animals in need, and generally trying to not be a typical bad human. That is awesome. Still the animal rights groups that you seem to wish to align with would still consider your animals to be slaves for human enjoyment and you an evil slave owner. They don't care about how your tortoise came to you or what the situation is. Your tortoises are imprisoned by you and in their mind they would be better off dead than to be a plaything for you.

I don't know about you, but that view point seems completely ludicrous to me. From what I can tell your tortoises are well cared for and you tend to their needs. I don't find what you are doing to be torturous and I don't see you as a horrible slave owner... But they do.

Are you sure you are an animal rightist? You don't seem like one.


I have no knowledge at all about Austrian law or politics. However, human history is full of examples of governments overreaching and abusing power. If this is what happened in the case you mentioned I would not be surprised.

 

[leigti]

How on earth did a thread about a couple of mis-informed tortoise keepers and their painted and mixed-specie tortoises turn into an animal rights debate?

I'm watching you, soup people!

Because it is a topic that brings on very strong feelings. it is not a black-and-white issue. Lots of different angles and viewpoints.

 

[tglazie]

I was about to post some long thing describing and clarifying what an animal rightsist actually is after ascott scoffed at my assertion that they are the gravest enemy the herp community currently faces, but then Tom explained it as thoroughly as I could have, so no need. But I just can't help myself, so I'm going to say a few things anyway. Everything Tom said times a thousand. There is a big difference between an animal rights activist/supporter (someone who argues for community involvement in animal welfare) and an Animal Rightsist. My friend's wife is a personnel director for the Humane Society. Now, I think the president of The Humane Society is an idiot, given that he stands against the keeping of reptiles on the basis that they're dangerous, despite the fact that dogs kill a few hundred times more people per year than even the deadliest reptile, but regardless of the president's stupidity, my friend's wife is a nice, reasonable person who supports animal welfare. She doesn't contend that I'm a slave owner or that my animals should be taken from me and destroyed.

Now, if you search for PETA, one of the first things that comes up is "PETA kills animals." That is because this is what they were doing as of 2013 (they're probably still doing it; I just have no information on that). PETA argues against "no kill" animal shelters. They kill animals that are dropped off at their facilities, in the back of a van, even if the animals could be readily adopted. The New York Times and the Washington Times ran articles on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/u...-end-of-others-anger.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0. PETA is the face of animal rightsists, and animal rightsists are scum, and they are the ones most directly responsible for the asinine laws on the books today that plague turtle and tortoise keepers at every turn. They will not rest until we "slave owners" are forced to relinquish our animals so that they may murder our pets and burn their remains in a kiln. I'm not engaged in sensationalism when I say that these disgusting people would rather see every animal on earth perish than see them confined, even in a free range run. And I don't know if Tom's claim that they are a terrorist group is entirely accurate. I do know that the USDA lists them as a terrorist group, and the FBI chastised them for offering material support to actual terrorist organizations the Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front. But hey, ultimately, the effect is, in my opinion, the same. Saying PETA is a terrorist organization vs. saying PETA supports terrorist organizations makes little difference.

T.G.

 

[phebe121]

Just last yr peta killed , o er 3000 animals and they jus put them in a big gian frezzer wile there alive

 

[leigti]

I have my own issues with "no kill" animal shelters, however if PETA is killing animals then aren't they very hypocritical amongst everything else?