Worried !

[gmades]

Hello, I am the proud owner of a 4 year old Horsefield tortoise weighing 249g and measuring 103mm called George. We have had George for 18 months and therefore quite new tortoise owning.

Over the last few weeks George has become considerably slower, now not moving for most of the day and only eating if directly fed by hand, sleeping most of the time. With it being the middle of September is this associated with hibernation? Is this behaviour normal? Should we disturb George for food or leave him undisturbed.

George was not hibernated last year as we felt he was too young.

George is currently living on a tortoise table with a UVA and UVB combined lamp. Should this lamp be left on for 12 hours a day when geroge is so sleepy or reduced?

I would be very grateful for any tips/help or information on any of the questions.

Please help... i am a very worried owner at the moment...
Many thanks.

 

[Laura]

are you going to hibernate him this winter? If so, you dont want him to have food in his gut.
If you are planning ot keep him awake, then increase the temps and light time to fool him into thinking its summer...

 

[gmades]

Thanks for the reply, i am unsure on hibernation what do you recommend i have read so much conflicting information. George seems to me ready for hibernation now but is mid september too early ?

 

[Kristina]

At this point I would rule out hibernating George this year. He could be naturally slowing down, but something also could be wrong, leading to his lethargy. The last thing you want to do is hibernate a sick tort.

We need more details of his set up - what kind of container, how large, what is the substrate, what are the humidity, temps, and current lighting schedule? Does he have hiding places? What is George's diet like? Does he have free access to a water dish? Do you soak him? Any bubbles or wheezing, swollen eyes, or swollen look to his body around his legs or head?

Pictures of his enclosure would be fantastic.

 

[dmmj]

I don't recommend hibernating turtles or tortoises the first year you have them, or young ones either for the first 4 years, that is just my personal preference, There is no danger form a healthy tortoise going into hibernation. you will need to decide if you want to hibernate yours, I hibernate my healthy and older tortoises, If I have had them less than a year then I don't hibernate. Is your an adult or baby? I have 3 russian adults and hibernate them every year, when they are healthy.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Welcome to the forum! Yes, please post more info. Have you replaced your UVB after 6 or 123 months as recommended, based on the type (6 months for a tube, 12 months for a Mercury Vapor Bulb)? Have you checked the temps in the last day or two with an accurate thermometer? Torts do just get in funks sometimes (mine will not come out for 1-2 days), but I'd be surprised if you hadn't seen similar behavior by now. I would get him up daily and place him in front of the food. Do a warm soak daily or every other day as this can simulate activity (baby bath warm water up to where the place where the plastron and carapace meet, for 15 minutes or so). I agree to keep him up this winter, especially with what you describe. There is no reason you have to hibernate, so after you have another year to be educated about it, then make a decision (my personal choice is I think it has more risks than benefits).

Some photos of the tortoise and enclosure would be very helpful as well as stats on the temperature, humidity, enclosure size, medical history, what you feed, how long these symptoms have been going on, if there have been recent changes like a new enclosure or diet, and type of substrate. The UVB bulb should typically always be left on for 12 hours. I keep a 12-14 hour a day cycle of lights/heat/UVB being on (gradient available from 70-95 F), and the other 10-12 hours dark and cooler (temp drop from the day, somewhere between 60-70 F is good, which means at least this time of year, no heat). Common causes of lack of activity off the top of my head are too high or to low of temperatures, illness, recent change in enclosure/diet, stress like a new home (probably not the case here), tort wanting to hibernate (as long as he's above 60 F this shouldn't be the case, especially since he didn't hibernate last winter and you've actually had him awhile and he's captive bred), and just being in a funk (shouldn't last more than 1-3 days, and the tortoise snaps out of it on its own--theory is they feel pressure changes and just plain have personalities such that some torts will do this every once in awhile). That seems small for 4...how big was he when you got him at 2.5 years old? My two year old Russian is the same length (although much heavier, but a bit chubby) at 2 years old. That is more a point of curiosity and likely won't help us. Good luck!

 

[gmades]

thanks again for your reply. George is currently on a tortoise table measuring 2ft by 3ft, the temperature under the bulb (basking spot) is 32/35 and 28/26 degrees at the cooler end of the table ( where george is spending most of his time).

George currently has a substrate specifically for russian torts which seems to comprise of mostly sand with extra calcium substrate added. Inside the table there is a log and a pot for george to hide under as well as a synthetic plant and 2 rocks.

George is fed a diet of mainly weeds. Dandelions and chickweed are regulars with hosters rosepetals and clover. Cucumber makes a very occasional apperance. Neutrabol is added to georges food at every feeding. George is currently fed every other day as recomended by various reading (to avoid rapid growth). Is this correct ?

Regarding georges weight i looked on the mcintyre ratio graph and george seems to be a good weight for a tort of his size.

The light on the table currently comes on at 8am and goes off at 8pm and the buld was changed around 8 months ago.

This behaviour of vertually no movment has developed over the last 3 weeks, prior to this george was active through most of the day basking and walking around the enclosure. George is given regular baths (once a week) and is regualy taken into the garden for a roam.

I am consideing taking George to the vets,

Hope this helps..... any more help much appreciated

 

[tortoisenerd]

78 to 95 F is good. Table size is good (although as the tort grows you need to increase the size again). Day/night cycle is good. As long as he has water in the enclosure and you see him use it, you don't even have to give a bath. Up to you. If you don't think he uses the water ever, I would up the soaks a bit. Also, with this going on is a good time to up the soaks.

I would ditch the sand right away and use coconut coir, organic potting soil, or cypress mulch. Any type of sand is bad as it can cause impaction, but calci sand is even worse as it is tasty, encouraging the tort to eat it. I know they bag says its great, but its not.

Number of hides sounds good but make sure you have one in a warm area, one in a moderate area, one in a cool area, and one near the food (so at least 3-4). Weeds are great but make sure they aren't all very high in oxalic acid (which binds to calcium and can cause problems like stones), as dandelion, clover, and chickweed and most weeds are. If you mix in some vegetable leaves (except tomato), good lettuces like endive, other edible flowers besides the roses (like pansies and hibiscus), grape leaves, small amounts of kale & cactus pads & butternut squash & pumpkin, etc, that is good. I would feed daily as much as he wants as he is still growing. He is undersize (in length) for his age if he is really four. As long as you stick to a healthy diet and have lots of space for him to roam, and track the growth so you see it isn't ultra rapid, I don't think you will have problems. Once he stops growing you can feed as much as he needs to maintain weight and see how he is for weight vs. length on a growth chart. I checked him now on mine (its the McIntyre ratio if you want to search for it), and he is a good weight for his length.

I would ditch the Nutrobal because although it is high in calcium (your tort needs a calcium powder at least every other day on the food), it has a multivitamin which is easy to overdo. With a varied diet your tort shouldn't be given a vitamin in my opinion, as it has a chance of doing more harm than good (although unlikely to be causing what you describe unless you have been caking the stuff on, and at that point the tort wouldn't eat it). Many vitamins are fat soluble (like D3, which would be what I would sorry about most with a vitamin supplement as the tort makes its own D3 from UVB) and can build to toxic levels, unlike water soluble vitamins like calcium which are peed out when the tort has excess. In the wild a tort's diet is rather low nutrients. As long as you have the calcium + UVB, I think its all good. If you wanted a vitamin of sorts, I would get a supplement like Total Nutrition for Tortoises from carolinapetsupply.com, which is basically all natural ground up stuff, but that is basically a powder form of what you feed!

Rapid growth is more of a problem if you have the tort in a small enclosure so it can't exercise, or are feeding higher calorie foods like they won't get in the wild. if you do really think he needs to be limited, then personally I'd feed daily but half of what you are feeding currently every other day (increasing this over time as he grows). I see n no reason to regularly skip days with torts, although after they are a couple years old they do fine going a weekend or whatever without food like if you are on trips, or the occasional day off as in the wild some days they wouldn't find food. The main things however are healthy diet and exercise, which I think you have both. Any time out in the garden when the temps are good, as long as it is secure from predators and chemical free and has shade, will help him thrive.

The vets is a good idea regardless of what is going on just for a check up and fecal test for parasites, but yes a good tort bet may give you some insight. Three weeks is too long for a healthy "funk" as I like to call it. I suspect if those temps were just measured (you are not quoting old ones), the UVB bulb has been replaced regularly or he gets out in the sun a few hours a week, then something health-wise is going on. Although I had some suggestions, I don't think anything you mentioned so far is the cause of the inactivity. Good luck!

 

[gmades]

Thanks so much for your reply its really given me some great information tahnks for spending so much time on it !

George has a large water bowel in his table although never uses it even when encoraged he storms out. George seems to enjoy being bathed however so i will increase the regularity of this and give him some long soaks.

I have ordered the supplement that you recomend. We have only recently changed to neutrabol from a pure calcium supplement.

The calci sand i will also change i was as you suggest tempted by how ideal it sounded as described on the bag of substrate.

I will also take George to the vet next week to get complete a poo sample as having george 18 months it seems like a good time for a check up.

Thanks for your help.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Great! Its so disappointing how many reptile products are pure junk (most in the store actually--from the supplements to the pellet foods to the substrates and bulbs). I get my pure calcium from the human store, water and food dish from hardware store, substrate in bulk from an online pet retailer, I would only ever feed a couple brands of pellet foods that are tough to find in pet stores (ZooMed Grassland and Mazuri) and only in small amounts, and I'd only use a T-Rex Active UV Heat or Mega Ray Mercury Vapor Bulb, where the ceramic hood fixtures are cheaper from hardware stores or online. Just a few examples how pet stores & products seem to have the best interests of your tort in mind, but really not. Your Russian is the same size as mine (mine is two) so for some reason I'm really taken by trying to help--don't mind typing out everything one bit. Good luck!

 

[dmmj]

Re: mazuri in pet stores, my local store in montclair just started carrying it.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Very cool!