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Can turtles be dwarfs or have stunted growth like people can?
Weird question (Dwarfism?)
- Thread starter ashbelys
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RE: Weird question
Good question. Wouldn't that be cool to have a Sully the size of a large Russian! I am curious about this as well. I know they can be stunted by lack of proper food and living space but I think they spring out of it if those issues are corrected. Hope Tom or Will wades into this with an answer.
Good question. Wouldn't that be cool to have a Sully the size of a large Russian! I am curious about this as well. I know they can be stunted by lack of proper food and living space but I think they spring out of it if those issues are corrected. Hope Tom or Will wades into this with an answer.
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Weird question
I think you are only going to get a "dwarf" through bad husbandry.
I think you are only going to get a "dwarf" through bad husbandry.
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Weird question
I believe they can to a certain extent. It's probably easier for a male to be dwarfed than a female because males never deal with egg size issues or passing eggs.
I can only speak on my expertise (gulf coast box turtles). I have seen many TINY old mature males reaching no more than 4 inches in length when the average male size is between 6 - 8.5 inches. But as far as the females there seems to be a less extreme range in adult sizes, usually 5-7.5 inches on average with the vast majority being 6-6.5 inches.
I've never come across an incredibly small female but so called "dwarf" males are not so uncommon.
I so wish camera phones existed 15-20 years ago when I was in the woods all the time . I could have taken so many pictures of the box turtles in this area
and it would be much easier to SHOW a dwarf male next to a monster male.
I believe they can to a certain extent. It's probably easier for a male to be dwarfed than a female because males never deal with egg size issues or passing eggs.
I can only speak on my expertise (gulf coast box turtles). I have seen many TINY old mature males reaching no more than 4 inches in length when the average male size is between 6 - 8.5 inches. But as far as the females there seems to be a less extreme range in adult sizes, usually 5-7.5 inches on average with the vast majority being 6-6.5 inches.
I've never come across an incredibly small female but so called "dwarf" males are not so uncommon.
I so wish camera phones existed 15-20 years ago when I was in the woods all the time . I could have taken so many pictures of the box turtles in this area
and it would be much easier to SHOW a dwarf male next to a monster male.
RE: Weird question
I don't think a chelonian would ever suffer from dwarfism (Achondroplasia), but they do suffer poor growth from bad husbandry or illness.
I don't think a chelonian would ever suffer from dwarfism (Achondroplasia), but they do suffer poor growth from bad husbandry or illness.
RE: Weird question
I would guess that any animal could be dwarfed by genetic mutation. But there would likely be health issues. I know a married couple who are both dwarfs. When they went to the doctor to discuss the possibility of having children, they were told that since they are BOTH dwarfs, there would be a 25% chance that a child would be normal, a 50% chance the child would be dwarfed like them and a 25% chance the child would be so severely dwarfed that it would not survive 6 months. They had 2 children: one is dwarfed like them, the other had the severe form and died at age 3 months. This couple are amazing people who face Life and the blows they've been dealt with serenity and optimism- I always feel humbled whenever I see them.
I was reading recently about the breed of cat called a "Munchkin." They are apparently a type of dwarf: their bodies, heads and tails are normal length, but their legs are VERY short. Although they do not have any apparent health issues, they have a very low fertility rate- I'm guessing it's something like what happened with my dwarf friends. That breed is not accepted in many countries because they regard them as deformed and not contributing to the overall vigor and health of the feline breeds.
On the other hand, I think several dog breeds, such as Welsh Corgis may be the result of a dwarf mutation and I'm not aware that they have any health issues. But I'm not really "up" on dog breeds- maybe we should ask Queen Elizabeth II!!!
I would guess that any animal could be dwarfed by genetic mutation. But there would likely be health issues. I know a married couple who are both dwarfs. When they went to the doctor to discuss the possibility of having children, they were told that since they are BOTH dwarfs, there would be a 25% chance that a child would be normal, a 50% chance the child would be dwarfed like them and a 25% chance the child would be so severely dwarfed that it would not survive 6 months. They had 2 children: one is dwarfed like them, the other had the severe form and died at age 3 months. This couple are amazing people who face Life and the blows they've been dealt with serenity and optimism- I always feel humbled whenever I see them.
I was reading recently about the breed of cat called a "Munchkin." They are apparently a type of dwarf: their bodies, heads and tails are normal length, but their legs are VERY short. Although they do not have any apparent health issues, they have a very low fertility rate- I'm guessing it's something like what happened with my dwarf friends. That breed is not accepted in many countries because they regard them as deformed and not contributing to the overall vigor and health of the feline breeds.
On the other hand, I think several dog breeds, such as Welsh Corgis may be the result of a dwarf mutation and I'm not aware that they have any health issues. But I'm not really "up" on dog breeds- maybe we should ask Queen Elizabeth II!!!
RE: Weird question
Do you ever sell your Gulf coast boxies? I have four juveniles and one huge adult female that looks to be a three toed hybrid (she has three toes on her back legs at least) and I would love some more. Mine are all dark tan like in my avatar but I really really want soem black ones and some lighter tan ones. The only person I have found on here with them is not willing to ship out of Cali just yet.
And so I am not totally jacking this thread, I do have a male three toed that is really really old and he is not much over 4, 4.5 inches. He is a player though. Not one of the five girls in the garden has managed to escape his advances and one of them is about 9.5 inches! She is a monster!
diamondbp said:I believe they can to a certain extent. It's probably easier for a male to be dwarfed than a female because males never deal with egg size issues or passing eggs.
I can only speak on my expertise (gulf coast box turtles). I have seen many TINY old mature males reaching no more than 4 inches in length when the average male size is between 6 - 8.5 inches. But as far as the females there seems to be a less extreme range in adult sizes, usually 5-7.5 inches on average with the vast majority being 6-6.5 inches.
I've never come across an incredibly small female but so called "dwarf" males are not so uncommon.
I so wish camera phones existed 15-20 years ago when I was in the woods all the time . I could have taken so many pictures of the box turtles in this area
Do you ever sell your Gulf coast boxies? I have four juveniles and one huge adult female that looks to be a three toed hybrid (she has three toes on her back legs at least) and I would love some more. Mine are all dark tan like in my avatar but I really really want soem black ones and some lighter tan ones. The only person I have found on here with them is not willing to ship out of Cali just yet.
And so I am not totally jacking this thread, I do have a male three toed that is really really old and he is not much over 4, 4.5 inches. He is a player though. Not one of the five girls in the garden has managed to escape his advances and one of them is about 9.5 inches! She is a monster!
Re: RE: Weird question
I would LOVE a mini sully!
Saleama said:
I would LOVE a mini sully!
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Weird question
The reason I ask is bc I have two painteds, both the same size and age when I got them and one is getting really big, while the other hasn't grown at all. I'm doing everything I should be as far as care goes and I'm not really sure what else to do.
The reason I ask is bc I have two painteds, both the same size and age when I got them and one is getting really big, while the other hasn't grown at all. I'm doing everything I should be as far as care goes and I'm not really sure what else to do.
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Weird question
They may be different types of painted's. I see that one has a stripe down his back and the other doesn't.
Someone will be able to answer this.
They look good!
They may be different types of painted's. I see that one has a stripe down his back and the other doesn't.
Someone will be able to answer this.
They look good!
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Weird question
One is eastern and one is western, and although they might grow slightly different, the smaller one has not grown at all. I have continued to measure their shell sizes and his is the same as it was when he was 3 weeks old, and he is now 3 months old. This is my major concern. And he does eat like a little piggy so idk what's going on.
One is eastern and one is western, and although they might grow slightly different, the smaller one has not grown at all. I have continued to measure their shell sizes and his is the same as it was when he was 3 weeks old, and he is now 3 months old. This is my major concern. And he does eat like a little piggy so idk what's going on.
Yes, it can and does happen. A friend of mine has an eight year old, fully grown spengleri that is 62grams, that's it! It was the smallest egg of a three egg clutch. Dwarfism can also be associated with the pastel morph in RES. That morph is probably always female, and can also contribute to small adult size in many of those turtles.
I lied. I have seen one male pastel RES in Aug 2013 with a friend in PA. Forgot about that.
I also wanted to comment on this.. It could be a sign of sickness/failure to thrive, which does happen from time to time. In my experience though, when raising up aquatics, it is very rare that any two specimens grow at very similar rates, even in the same enclosure and with the same care. Even in a larger group, some animals will be better eaters, baskers, more active, etc, all of which affects growth rates. Differing growth rates aren't the same thing as "dwarf-like" adult size.
One interesting story pertaining to slow growth rtes that I like to share is of one of my Spider Tortoises that would NOT grow, but was perfectly healthy. This tortoise was 31 grams at 5 or so months old, and stayed that weight until just before it's second birthday! It was perfectly healthy and more active than other Tortoises that it had been raised with since birth. Care was exactly the same and the 3 other tortoises were between 90 and 120 grams when the little one decided to start growing. It is now 2.5 years old and is over 60 grams. When that thing finally grew I was jumping for joy.
ashbelys said:
I also wanted to comment on this.. It could be a sign of sickness/failure to thrive, which does happen from time to time. In my experience though, when raising up aquatics, it is very rare that any two specimens grow at very similar rates, even in the same enclosure and with the same care. Even in a larger group, some animals will be better eaters, baskers, more active, etc, all of which affects growth rates. Differing growth rates aren't the same thing as "dwarf-like" adult size.
One interesting story pertaining to slow growth rtes that I like to share is of one of my Spider Tortoises that would NOT grow, but was perfectly healthy. This tortoise was 31 grams at 5 or so months old, and stayed that weight until just before it's second birthday! It was perfectly healthy and more active than other Tortoises that it had been raised with since birth. Care was exactly the same and the 3 other tortoises were between 90 and 120 grams when the little one decided to start growing. It is now 2.5 years old and is over 60 grams. When that thing finally grew I was jumping for joy.
Can we see pics of their belly please? Make sure there is plenty of light please.
I'm wondering if the smaller one is western? Might be Southern.
I have a Diamondback terrapin that is 1/2 the size of his siblings.. from the same clutch! Incubated for males.
I'm wondering if the smaller one is western? Might be Southern.
I have a Diamondback terrapin that is 1/2 the size of his siblings.. from the same clutch! Incubated for males.
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The smaller one is the western and his shell is actually significantly softer than the larger ones as well
Also, they have the UVB light on them 12-14 hours per day plus an infrared heat lamp
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I have found that in captive situations, especially in Chrysemys, if an individual turtle is smaller than tank mates, that trend will continue as the large specimen(s) will continue to outcompete for resources and potentially stress the smaller turtle(s). If you are concerned, you might consider separating the two. It can only help the smaller turtle begin eating more aggressively.
I thought only the southern painted had the line? I have a southern painted female.
I agree that poor husbandry can result in stunted growth but so can "pair" bullying.
In some tortoise pairs I've seen, one bullies the other and the result is drastically smaller size in the bullied one. Not sure if the pair dynamic occurs in aquatic turtles, too.
I agree that poor husbandry can result in stunted growth but so can "pair" bullying.
In some tortoise pairs I've seen, one bullies the other and the result is drastically smaller size in the bullied one. Not sure if the pair dynamic occurs in aquatic turtles, too.
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Okay well her is my question. I bought two hatchling sulcatas four years ago. Both have always been housed outdoors. Bathed daily. Feed grass weeds dandis hibiscus. Calcium supplements. And humid. Never feed them mazuri until this year. Hector weighs 7 lbs 5.2 ounces .. And shy girl weighs only 928 grams. Never had parasites. But she just grows slower thought she was being bullied but she seems to eat more. I think I will separate them this spring to see if she sprouts
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I think she will sprout when you split them up.
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I thought maybe there was bullying going on so I started separating them to feed them but the amount each was eating didn't change. I now feed them together in the tank, but I watch to make sure both are getting the same amount of food. I feed them on opposite sides. The smaller turtle is a lot pickier and only recently started to eat the turtle diet, where the other has always eaten it. And actually, the smaller one is much more aggressive and brave than the larger one. If I though for a second that bullying was a problem, I'd separate them, but they don't really seem to like being alone.
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