UVB

[livelycorpse]

What are opinions on a UVB light source if a RF tortoise spends very little time outside? For a Hatchling? Yearling? Juvenile? Adult?
Thanks, Jake.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Jake.. where do redfoot tortoises come from?

The forests and jungles [ primarily ] of South America.

So with that in mind.. and consider the fact that they are "omnivorous" [ eat anything ] and often almost "carnivorous" [ eat animal protein ] they don't [ need to ] bask to get the D vitamins needed to do that calcium thing.. needed by tortoises!

I've never used the "UVB" light source for redfoot tortoises. And my 3 year-olds that I hatched look like WC.. smooth as 'you know what's'!

What's your opinion Jake?

 

[Itort]

Redfoots are forest tortoises who in the wild receive minimal sunlight (less than 3% of that which hits the canopy) and as such do not benefit from UVB. They receive their vitamin D3 from animal protien (they are omnivores as opposed to grassland tortoises that are largely herbivorous). There also recent studies that show UVB may actually be injurious to the eyes of forest tortoises. In my experience UVB bulbs are a needless expense, spend your money on a good ceramic heat emitter.

 

[livelycorpse]

Thanks for the opinions! I will be getting a RF shortly and do not intend on having a UV light source. I will soon be moving to an apartment and will have limited access to sunlight. And i was just curious as to some other opinions. I did know that they received their D3 from their diet and that too much is a common problem, however, i did not know exactly how little UV was need. I do intend to every seventh day feed a high protein cat food (Eukanuba - Adult cat - Chicken flavour) with some calcium dusting.
Thanks, Jake.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Jake.. these are proven facts based on years of research and experience.

You're more than welcome to contact me direct with any Q?'s you might have. Email me from any one of my 'sites in my signature.

Hope this has helped.

 

[cdmay]

Well actually, redfoots are NOT primarily forest and jungle tortoises. Their close cousins the yellowfoot tortoise, G. denticulata occurs in these habitats though.
Redfoots are found in forest edges and savannah/scrub. In eastern Brazil they are found in scrub areas with sparse grasses and spiney bromeliads. In Paraguay they occur in thorn scrub that is leafless for large portions of the year. In some places they occur in seasonally dry forests. So although they can live in a variety of habitats, observations in the wild and in large outdoor pens indicate that they do indeed bask in direct sunlight often. I know that both hatchlings and adults of mine will actively seek out patches of direct sunlight even on warm mornings.
Having said that, many keepers have acheived good results raising them without direct sunlight or expensive UVB lighting. However, the long term results of these animal's success is years away.
I think common sense is needed and offering direct sunlight (with shade of course) or some UVB lighting couldn't hurt and probably benefits, if only in a limited way.
As Terry mentions though a good varied diet along with proper humidity and water are essential.

 

[livelycorpse]

Thanks for the info, i do not have to worry about the cost as i already have spare fixtures and bulbs, i keep many reptiles just not torts...yet. So maybe offer a couple hours of uv in a day? Maybe not. We'll see.
Thanks, Jake.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Make note.. cdmay is referring mainly to "Southern" redfoots.. aka Cherryheads. The cherrys do occur in "harsher" climates.. moreso than the "Northerns" which do have access to a somewhat different environment. [ more ground-cover ]

My adults DO come out [ of their hide ] in the warmer months outside and warm-up their 'bones'.. graze awhile and then back to their hide when the sun gets too hot - I'm referring to the "Northerns". When I do bring the hatchlings and juveniles outside for "fresh air".. they will eat and it doesn't take them long 'til they run for the shade!

My "Southerns" are much more active in "direct" sun.. no doubt. Almost as if they are more "heat-tolerant".

Until recently [ 10 years ago? ] a much greater percentage of the redfoots in the pet-trade have been the "Northerns".

Also keep in mind that I'm the best part of 750 miles North of cdmay.. and mine ARE primarily Northerns.. whereas he is much further South and breeds ONLY Southerns!

So jake we're not contradicting each other.. we're almost referring to different "sub-species" - although it's not been "officially" classified/established.

Bottom-line.. what they "don't" get by basking [ UVB lighting? ] they get from their diet, since they are Omnivorous. Unlike "most" other torts in the Eastern "hemisphere" that are Herbivorous.. that don't get what they need from their diet so they have to bask!

I'm sure this is clear as mud!

 

[Itort]

Here are few articles on forest torts : www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/trophab.html, www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tropical.html, www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/feeding_redfoots.html

 

[cdmay]

Make note.. cdmay is referring mainly to "Southern" redfoots.. aka Cherryheads.

Actually Terry, the cherryheads are from Eastern Brazil and are not a 'southern' type. Although the Paraguayans are. But I was referring to redfoots in general.

(Quote)
Also keep in mind that I'm the best part of 750 miles North of cdmay.. and mine ARE primarily Northerns.. whereas he is much further South and breeds ONLY Southerns!

That part isn't correct either as I have bred Colombian, Suriname, Guyana as well as the cherryheads. I have maintained but not bred redfoots from Bolivia and have kept redfoots from Barbados and Martinique during the 34 years I have kept G. carbonaria. All of these animals have behaved exactly the same in my experience when it comes to basking behavior.
It is true that NOW I only keep the cherryheads as I gave up the last of my Colombian animals a few years ago.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.

 

[rattboy]

Thanks for the opinions! I will be getting a RF shortly and do not intend on having a UV light source. I will soon be moving to an apartment and will have limited access to sunlight. And i was just curious as to some other opinions. I did know that they received their D3 from their diet and that too much is a common problem, however, i did not know exactly how little UV was need. I do intend to every seventh day feed a high protein cat food (Eukanuba - Adult cat - Chicken flavour) with some calcium dusting.
Thanks, Jake.

Personally, I would not forgo UVB for any reptile without some proof of the long term effects to vitamin synthesis. As a rule, all diurnal reptiles need UVB. One could argue that a redfoot needs less but that would have to be proven, however the only science that I have seen that calls out reptiles that don't need UVB in captivity to survive are mostly nocturnal species (mainly certain snakes and lizards).

I wouldn't take the chance.

Paul

 

[livelycorpse]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

 

[terryo]

OMG!! I am so confused now!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

OMG!! I am so confused now!

It's no wonder Terry!

They had survived in captivity for years before the "scientists" came along with their HELP? - producing 'lights' that we are waiting for the long-term effects.. and have already seen the near fatal short-term effects.

SO.. there is more than one way to provide the Calcium "catalyst" needed.. by redfoot tortoises.

BTW Paul.. how many have you hatched now? [ per Carl's help ]

 

[livelycorpse]

Dudes and Dudettes, chill. LOL forget i asked.

 

[cdmay]

Dudes and Dudettes, chill. LOL forget i asked.

No, you asked a good question that deserves an answer. But as has been brought out, there isn't a really clear one right now. However, I would rather err on the side of providing something (sunlight/UVB) that may not be, although probably is, needed for overall health.
RedfootNerd is growing some nice looking animals from hatchlings but there is more to the equation I think than that for long term maintenance. The redfoots very clearly seek out direct sunlight both in the wild and in captivity regardless of the temperature (unless it is extremely hot) and in my mind that is telling you something. So I provide it.
My only real issue on this thread is that I am not misquoted or misrepresented and that question is not oversimplified with blanket statements.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Dudes and Dudettes, chill. LOL forget i asked.

No, you asked a good question that deserves an answer. But as has been brought out, there isn't a really clear one right now. However, I would rather err on the side of providing something (sunlight/UVB) that may not be, although probably is, needed for overall health.
RedfootNerd is growing some nice looking animals from hatchlings but there is more to the equation I think than that for long term maintenance. The redfoots very clearly seek out direct sunlight both in the wild and in captivity regardless of the temperature (unless it is extremely hot) and in my mind that is telling you something. So I provide it.
My only real issue on this thread is that I am not misquoted or misrepresented and that question is not oversimplified with blanket statements.

I agree 100% Carl.. when "keepers" do more research on the "native" environment and less research on 'forums' our beloved redfoots would fare much much better off!

It would take an ongoing "book" to provide tortoise needs.. and as you have told me.. "Much more to learn"!!! - 7/05.

For what it's worth.. the "un-edited" article [ submitted ] that appeared in the Sept. '06 issue of Reptiles magazine.. http://turtletary.com/gcarbonariabreeding.doc


In fact I spoke with a new keeper.. just the other day.. that met and spoke with Richard Cary Paull.. and commented that Richard said that he is now saying things about caring for redfoot tortoises that 30 years ago he didn't think he would ever say! Not exactly sure what that meant. But we were discussing the different UVB and DIET needs of different tortoises.. based on their native territory.

Although more are 'researching' BEFORE acquiring their tortoises.. we still hear - "I've got one.. what do I do now"? - much too often!

So Jake that was/is a good Q? that has created 'threads' 10 feet deep.. for at least 3 YEARS.. on every 'forum' out there.. and no doubt much longer!!!

Again thank you Carl for your statements about my "husbandry".. I've tried to follow your lead. And make statements based on observations and personal experience only.

My 'proven' females will be 10 years old [ raised from hatchlings ] this fall.. and overall produce like clockwork. So yes there is more to it than "blanket" statements. And I do provide an animal protein food source that claims to contain D3.

 

[Itort]

Here are few articles on forest torts : www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/trophab.html, www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tropical.html, www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/feeding_redfoots.html

These are the corrected links: www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/trophab.html www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/tropical.html I think these may shed some light on the lighting quandrey. What I see from these 10.0 and 08. UVB bulbs are overkill and a 05.0 is probably the best option. This is my opinion. One last thing I want to say is I got my RFs 35 years ago and I would have welcomed as spirited a discussion as this then instead blind luck as far as husbandry techiniques.

 

[Madkins007]

UVB is a pretty complicated topic- and I see a lot of people treat it very simplistically. A good site on several aspects of it is located at http://www.uvguide.co.uk.

Many reptiles seem to see UVB, but I can find no research or evidence that Red-foots or turtles in general can. (If anyone has seen research on this, please let me know.) Most tortoises avoid the sun when UV is at the highest, and the skin of the Red-foot is not consistent with species that need high levels of UVB. The critical vitamin D3 is the key element, and no one seems to have any clue what he necessary rate is for tortoises... I cannot even find a solid formula for determining calcium levels (ratios, yes- but not a recommended daily calcium intake formula.)

One interesting bit- the only commonly eaten vegetable that contains vitamin D is mushrooms- which not only contains more D per gram than meat, but is also relished by forest species. Of course, 'shrooms have almost no calcium in them.

Another interesting bit- a recent study showing no difference in growth in Red-ear Sliders with or without UVB (http://turtlesurvival.org/abstract07/3.htm) It does not really prove much for this debate, but it does suggest that a sun-loving species that eats at least a partially carnivorous diet does not depend on UVB to process calcium.

It seems like for every reason to offer UVB to Red-foots, there is a reason not to. Not only do we have the basic 'do they need it' issue, we also need to look at UVB lights- at least some of which seem to be causing problems (as per the above site).

A lot of keepers use high-output UVB lights all day, which does not simulate the changing levels of UVB in the wild very well, and a lot of tortoises avoid high UVB times of the day much of the year.

Personally- I think we tend to use UVB as a band-aid- 'it can't hurt' sort of thinking, and that the evidence of actual large-scale, long-term keepers/breeders seems to show that they don't 'need' it, but that there may nonetheless be a benefit to it, as long as it is not too intense. (I would love to know if the UVB lights themselves are the main benefit, or if it is more like people who offer UVB are offering higher levels of care overall!) I also think that the best option is to keep them outside and let them figure it out for themselves!

But this is just the 2 cents of a small-scale, short-term keeper who spends too much time on the net.

 

[Lupita]

Make note.. cdmay is referring mainly to "Southern" redfoots.. aka Cherryheads.

Actually Terry, the cherryheads are from Eastern Brazil and are not a 'southern' type. Although the Paraguayans are. But I was referring to redfoots in general.

(Quote)
Also keep in mind that I'm the best part of 750 miles North of cdmay.. and mine ARE primarily Northerns.. whereas he is much further South and breeds ONLY Southerns!

That part isn't correct either as I have bred Colombian, Suriname, Guyana as well as the cherryheads. I have maintained but not bred redfoots from Bolivia and have kept redfoots from Barbados and Martinique during the 34 years I have kept G. carbonaria. All of these animals have behaved exactly the same in my experience when it comes to basking behavior.
It is true that NOW I only keep the cherryheads as I gave up the last of my Colombian animals a few years ago.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.

I used to have a Columbian male, but all my females are probably from Surinam or some other northern stock. My current males are both from Guyana stock. I hate mixing the types, but at least the Guyana males are closer to the females' origins than the Columbian male was.

They certainly do come out and bask on cool mornings. From what I've read these northern ones spend much of their time in more open areas than the yellowfoots that are primarily forest animals. Redfoots hang out along the gallery forests in the llanos, so they have access to both sun and shade. It's always best to give the animal a choice by giving them access to direct sunlight. The best UVB bulbs still pale in comparison with natural sunlight.

I've read a few field studies on redfoots in the llanos, and they do seek out carrion. In fact you can find them hunkered down under dead cows. I would expect that all tortoises would snack on a little beef jerky given the chance.

I've always kept the adults outside and provided calcium without D3. I raise all the babies indoors and supplement them with calcium with D3, but the juveniles always seem to do better if they get to spend time outdoors. I have never had a calcium problem and my females always lay good calicified eggs. I never supplement with dog or cat food, but they do enjoy a good romp in the Mazuri chow which probably gives them a little protein boost.

Lupita