Unusual Box turtle ID

[kimber_lee_314]

I came across this unusual box turtle today. Her head and arms look like an ornate - kind of blue/grey and her head shape is that of an ornate. Her carapace has no raised keel down the middle like an ornate, but her color is tan - like a three toed. What is she? Possibly a hybrid?

 

[Saloli]

where was she found?

 

[kimber_lee_314]

They guy who gave her to me said that he took her out of Arizona. When I questioned him on this, he said it was, "Well, a friend of mine did - many years ago." I also took a very sick ornate (most likely ornata ornata) from him that he claims came from the same place. The poor things were in such bad condition - I just got out of there ASAP with them.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hey Kimber:

It may be a very old desert box turtle (luteola). Does it have 3 toes on the back feet?

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Yes, she does have three toes. In fact, he kept telling me she was an ornate three toed box turtle. When I told him there is no such thing he said, "Yes, there is. They are indigenous to Arizona where I took her from." I've looked carefully for any striations on her carapace and there are none. Her plastron is completely tan as well. Do they fade so much that you can't see them? Does this happen to ornata ornata as well? (By the way, the other one is definitely an ornata ornata - but he claims they came from the same place ....

Hey Kimber:

It may be a very old desert box turtle (luteola). Does it have 3 toes on the back feet?

 

[Saloli]

it reminds me of a gulf coast boxer Terrapene carolina major or possibly a intraspecies hybrid (cross between subspecies outside of the areas of intergradation) or an intergrade (also a cross between subspecies) but it could just as well be a interspecies hybrid (cross between species). As for the three toes T. c. major and T. c. triunguis intergrade over a large area. the best way to find out for sure with out DNA testing is to measure different scutes and compare those with know averages for each subspecies, also didgit length.

 

[Neal]

I'm going for broke and saying it's a desert box turtle. If it is indigenous to Arizona that's the only type we have here. I had a male that looked exactly like that one as well. Even though there's not much to compare it to, it looks too small to be a gulf coast.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Yes, I agree - too small to be a gulfie. Neal - did your lose the striations on the plastron as well?

 

[dmmj]

I love the blue head, pretty neat, to be honest it kinda looks like a hybrid to me. a 3 toe mix maybe?

 

[Saloli]

i was going on color i didn't know the size. i did see a gulf very simalar in appearance. but then again they are possibly the oldest of the living Terrapene carolina complex which would mean they do share some characteristics with the ornates and deserts though they are part of carolina and also a related to the two Mexican subspecies of carolina. but any way now that you mention it i do see a bit of a resemblance to the desert but i've never seen one with such a plain shell

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is it a male or female i'm guessing a male by the eyes check the first nail on the foot it will be turned in

 

[Yvonne G]

I really do think that you have a plain old 3-toe box turtle. It is probably an old and wild-caught turtle. I have a few with the same head coloration as this one. I'm pretty sure luteolas don't have three toes.

 

[Neal]

It's a male (can't tell 100%), guaging from the tail in the 1st picture. The purple head is a luteola trait. He's old, but I don't see much 3-toed in him. The beak has some white, but it looks like it's just weathered or worn down. His shell just doesn't look quite right for a 3-toed, and he even seems too small and not as domed to be a 3-toed. PM Danny and have him look at the thread for another opinion.

 

[terryo]

To me it looks like a very, very old Three Toed. Three Toed's and Eastern's are the one ones that I'm familiar with, and I've seen some that were very old that looked similar to that one.

 

[tortoiseguy65]

I am 100 % sure it is a Desert Box turtle male. An old fellow at that. I used to have several with the blue head and some even had purple heads. They were quite stunning. Unfortunately I had to sell them due to a divorce quite a few years ago. I was able to purchase 2 hatchlings this past year from a friend. They are interesting turtles and behave a little different than typical ornates. The simply LOVE Tunas, which are the fruits of the prickly pear cactus. I have eaten them as well and they are tasty. My guys used to smear them all over their faces while eating. Wish I had pics of that.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I am 100 % sure it is a Desert Box turtle male. An old fellow at that. I used to have several with the blue head and some even had purple heads. They were quite stunning. Unfortunately I had to sell them due to a divorce quite a few years ago. I was able to purchase 2 hatchlings this past year from a friend. They are interesting turtles and behave a little different than typical ornates. The simply LOVE Tunas, which are the fruits of the prickly pear cactus. I have eaten them as well and they are tasty. My guys used to smear them all over their faces while eating. Wish I had pics of that.

Jeff - did your older luteolas lose the striations on his plastron as well?

It's also interesting that everyone thinks he is male. The guy I got him from said female, and that's what I would say too. We'll have to see what happens ... eggs or flash!

 

[Neal]

Do you have a plastron picture? I don't remember what mine looked like.

It's definatley a male, the head color and face look like a male, as well as the tail.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Do you have a plastron picture? I don't remember what mine looked like.

It's definatley a male, the head color and face look like a male, as well as the tail.

 

[Neal]

Male 100%, I have a vague memory of the male luteola I had, this ones plastron reminds me of his but I can't be sure.

 

[tortoiseguy65]

Yes mine had plain plastrons as well. They basically were a straw colored turtle with a blue head. Several descriptions of T.o.luteola reference them as straw yellow with aged specimens losing the striping on the carapace and plastron. I agree with Neal that it is definitely a male. None of my females had the blue head. Your's also looks like he has that characteristic inward turning toe on the rear foot.

 

[Saloli]

yeah it is a male look at the inner toe nail the way it is curved is typical of ornata (both living supspecies). i agree with Jeff