Tortoise Breeding Ethics

Status
Not open for further replies.

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
The GOOD breeders do let the people without a lot of money in the bank have the breed. I have sold pups for a lot less, because they were going into a fantastic home. For me and unfortunately very few like me, it is only for the love of the breed.


EricIvins said:
Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....

Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........

I don't agree. When it comes to breeding anything. The standard of care and responsibility of the breeder for the breeding and offspring is the same, well it should be! My standard would be the same as it was for my dogs. The only difference would be the genetics, no records that I know of to research.
 

Wondering4toolong

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
38
Location (City and/or State)
CT, USA
EricIvins said:
Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....

Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........

They are diff creatures and as of now the industries ARE diff, but we should be open enough to look into other worlds and either take a page from their book or omit it...there is no telling what the future may hold, it is up to us to develop it...

I highly doubt turtles/tortoises will ever replace the retriever in the common household, but the numbers in rescue are growing faster than the number of quality households...even though we are looking at diff sp. I don't think it is unreasonable to examine mistakes and triumphs in the other areas of keeping any animal...


CDNPyxis said:
Wondering4toolong said:
BYB isn't the reason for homeless pets...it's lack of quality owners, people who don't look at these creatures as being disposable! Yes charging more for a puppy gets rid of people who have less $ in the bank, but just because they pay more doesn't mean they won't neglect/abuse/abandon it...the people who don't have a lot of $ are the ones who will take out a loan to treat the pet at the vet's office, I've seen it time and time again...the people who can afford the testing are the people who don't go for it, they'd rather put it to sleep and get a new 1!

I agree with this completely. I will not give an animal away because many people will jump at the chance to get an animal "for free" and the real cost is in maintenance for most animals. Once you ask for some money you usually eliminate those people.

I think one of the saving graces for tortoises is that it takes a relatively long time before a baby is breedable. That is not to say that there are not a lot of adults out there that someone can get and start breeding immediatly, but overall the majority of what is available are babies.

To me, the main points of tortoise breeding ethics is foremost the care and heath of the parents, then the consideration of whether the babies will actually be taken care of properly and no inbreeding.

When I first started breeding tortoises it was Leopards, in Canada there were very few around and so I did not worry about the babies much as I knew we would be able to find good homes. When I moved down to the states I realized that there were piles of Leopards availale. I never bred my leopards after making this realization. This was compounded by the large size they get to, when there are very few available you feel comfortable with the idea that you will find a home that will be willing and able to accomodate the larger adult, but when there are so many all I could think about is how many large adults there would be in 10 years and how many would be in the same homes that purchased them as babies? All I could think about for Leopards and Sulcatas is the fate of most Red Eared Sliders.


(Thumbs up to this post!) I used to breed Bearded Dragons...before the world became inundated with them. I morally couldn't be part of the problem I was starting to see rapidly increase and my efforts went to education and rescue for these wonderful little guys...been more than 10 yrs since I saw my last egg hatch. Luckily for the torti it does take longer for them to get to breeding size/age and most people don't just run out and buy adults.

The poor RES especially...look at this sp. in-particular to see what could happen down the road with other turtle/tortoise sp. Just doing a search on petfinder will show how many are in rescue...those are the lucky ones, there is no way of telling how many are dumped in local ponds and reservoirs...
 

Levi the Leopard

IXOYE
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
7,958
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Oregon
Laurie said:
I'm certainly not against tortoise breeding, however, I don't agree that it should be attempted without making an effort to be sure you can properly care for these animals.

Ok, I am liking all the answers that tort breeding isn't bad or frowned upon if you are serious about their proper care, financially able to support them, not doing it for pure profit and educating the future buyers..

(Wellington, with dog breeding it sounds like you and I are completely on the same page ;) )

I like those that said they stopped breeding their specific animal when they noticed an abundance of them. That to me shows you really care about the animals and where they will end up. Thumbs up!

EricIvins said:
Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....

Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........

This is kind of what I was figuring to some extent, but if you don't know, ask!!

Just a side story, I spent months researching about torts before I finally got mine. I met up with my breeder and selected my little guy. I was waiting for her to ask me about how I will care for him. Or even for her to share with me about how to properly care for him. I couldn't wait to "impress" her with how much I had learned. I left sad because not ONCE did she tell me what to do, how to do anything or even ask what I knew about them. I take that back, she did tell me to soak once a day, they ate romaine lettuce and to have them in a shallow tub or tank vs. a tall one. But that was it. A one liner as we wrapped it up....This experience is what contributed to my questioning about tortoise breeding ethics. I did compare it to the way some puppy sales go.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Unfortunately, that is the norm in any animal breeding/selling scenario. The all mighty dollar, as sick as it is, becomes more important, then a living, breathing, feeling creature:( Very few really care about the creature:( A lot of people will even act and say they care. The sad truth with a lot of them. When push comes to shove, the animal is the first to pay :(
 

Terry Allan Hall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4,009
Location (City and/or State)
The Republic O' Tejas
shellysmom said:
There are definitely debatable issues surrounding tortoise breeders. There are good responsible breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and I suspect there's a "tortie mill" facility in Port Richey, FL. I, personally, take issue with breeders who bring tortoises into the world and then sell their animals to idiots without so much as a simple explanation in how to care for it. For example, if you look at all of the large sulcatas for rehoming on Craig's List, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I have a feeling a lot of the people who originally purchased these animals from pet stores or questionable breeders, they were neither told by the seller that the tortoises would get to be 150lbs, nor did they do any simple research to find out. The sulcata's unmanageable adult size seems to be the main reason they are relinquished more often than other tortoise species, so it probably was not the best idea for soooo many people to jump on the sulcata breeding bandwagon. On the flip side, there are definitely beneficial reasons for breeding animals whose wild populations are decreasing. If you look at places like Kelly Hull's Tortoise Sanctuary, or the Turtle Survival Alliance, this type of conscientious breeding may one day save endangered species from extinction, and that is absolutely amazing.

Agree on both of your points...while entirely too many sulcatas end up in rescues, smaller tortoises should be bred to take the pressure off of wild stock.
 

ALDABRAMAN

KEEPER AT HEART
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
28,446
Location (City and/or State)
SW Forida
Team Gomberg said:
financially able to support them, not doing it for pure profit and educating the future buyers..

:)


wellington said:
Unfortunately, that is the norm in any animal breeding/selling scenario. The all mighty dollar, as sick as it is, becomes more important, then a living, breathing, feeling creature Very few really care about the creature

True!
 

Levi the Leopard

IXOYE
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
7,958
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Oregon
Terry Allan Hall said:
shellysmom said:
There are definitely debatable issues surrounding tortoise breeders. There are good responsible breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and I suspect there's a "tortie mill" facility in Port Richey, FL. I, personally, take issue with breeders who bring tortoises into the world and then sell their animals to idiots without so much as a simple explanation in how to care for it. For example, if you look at all of the large sulcatas for rehoming on Craig's List, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I have a feeling a lot of the people who originally purchased these animals from pet stores or questionable breeders, they were neither told by the seller that the tortoises would get to be 150lbs, nor did they do any simple research to find out. The sulcata's unmanageable adult size seems to be the main reason they are relinquished more often than other tortoise species, so it probably was not the best idea for soooo many people to jump on the sulcata breeding bandwagon. On the flip side, there are definitely beneficial reasons for breeding animals whose wild populations are decreasing. If you look at places like Kelly Hull's Tortoise Sanctuary, or the Turtle Survival Alliance, this type of conscientious breeding may one day save endangered species from extinction, and that is absolutely amazing.

Agree on both of your points...while entirely too many sulcatas end up in rescues, smaller tortoises should be bred to take the pressure off of wild stock.

well said shellysmom.

Terry Allan Hall, I like what you said about smaller torts being bred to take the supply/demand pressure off the wild caught.
 

CactusVinnie

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 13, 2011
Messages
300
Location (City and/or State)
Bucharest, Romania z6
Just that I wanted to put in order a simple answer, I saw that Gaddy was the first- as usual :shy:... So:

1- avoid inbreeding; not that acute in reptiles like in mammals, generally,, but the effects will appear sooner or later, and is not something easy to look at... better not find when or how it will look...

2- avoid crossings even between too distant populations; if possible, every program of rebuilding lost populations should be based in close range remnant populations, better adapted to the local environment than the same species, but from far, possible different locations; the same applies even in amateur level breeding. Know your tortoises origin: ask, digg and find.
Not to mention that HYBRIDS between subspecies, or even worse, SPECIES, are not at all desirable.

3- avoid selection/line-breding, a practice that accentuate a certain set of desired characteristics, almost always for market purposes.
Example: If you just look infos for the Golden Greeks, you will maybe surprised to find that they are not at all Golden as populations, but very variable, with only a greater number of Goldens within populations. Weird light coloured individuals occur even in Romanian Ibera or Boettgeri!! That kind of selection will also imply, after a few generations, a certain degree of inbreeding, since not all the offspring will be Golden; that thing will surprise the breeder, but is naturally reflecting the 75% commercial reasons for that pompous name...

4- avoid reckless breeding- the case of the RES needs no presentation... cheap, mass-produced chelonians, reaching he hands of instabile "enthusiasts", that got bored of the 5 y.o. RES that reached 10 inches and makes a terrible mess... that finally were disposed no matter how and where- including natural waters all over the world. Not to mention the animal neglect and suffering, it arises the problem of ecological catastrophe... A higher price and smaller production scale would have been useful to select the true enthusiasts, and the poor animal not becoming as cheap as a few Guppies and also identical in the ease to get rid of...
Even not adaptable and invasive, many individuals from species that grow too big will finally end by lacking proper housing, care and food.

Well, if it's to choose between overabundent breeding and depleting natural populations, the choice is easy, but it's not that easy to make it into fact, unfortunately. I have yet to see that the abundance of Testudo- be they Russians, Balkan, North-African or Middle East races- will originate in the successful, but exagerated captive breeding...
But why not? Because that for a commercial breeder, Testudo sp. are far more difficult to became mass-produced than (temperate) Emydids; so consequently, proportionally more difficult to keep by an amateur, many tortoise falling ill or dying, so no aditional captive perpetuation, but continuous imports of WC individuals, until total depletion in their countries of origin.

These should be the 4 pillars of chelonian- and not only- breeding ethics.
 

Wondering4toolong

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
38
Location (City and/or State)
CT, USA
CactusVinnie said:
Just that I wanted to put in order a simple answer, I saw that Gaddy was the first- as usual :shy:... So:

1- avoid inbreeding; not that acute in reptiles like in mammals, generally,, but the effects will appear sooner or later, and is not something easy to look at... better not find when or how it will look...

2- avoid crossings even between too distant populations; if possible, every program of rebuilding lost populations should be based in close range remnant populations, better adapted to the local environment than the same species, but from far, possible different locations; the same applies even in amateur level breeding. Know your tortoises origin: ask, digg and find.
Not to mention that HYBRIDS between subspecies, or even worse, SPECIES, are not at all desirable.

3- avoid selection/line-breding, a practice that accentuate a certain set of desired characteristics, almost always for market purposes.
Example: If you just look infos for the Golden Greeks, you will maybe surprised to find that they are not at all Golden as populations, but very variable, with only a greater number of Goldens within populations. Weird light coloured individuals occur even in Romanian Ibera or Boettgeri!! That kind of selection will also imply, after a few generations, a certain degree of inbreeding, since not all the offspring will be Golden; that thing will surprise the breeder, but is naturally reflecting the 75% commercial reasons for that pompous name...

4- avoid reckless breeding- the case of the RES needs no presentation... cheap, mass-produced chelonians, reaching he hands of instabile "enthusiasts", that got bored of the 5 y.o. RES that reached 10 inches and makes a terrible mess... that finally were disposed no matter how and where- including natural waters all over the world. Not to mention the animal neglect and suffering, it arises the problem of ecological catastrophe... A higher price and smaller production scale would have been useful to select the true enthusiasts, and the poor animal not becoming as cheap as a few Guppies and also identical in the ease to get rid of...
Even not adaptable and invasive, many individuals from species that grow too big will finally end by lacking proper housing, care and food.

Well, if it's to choose between overabundent breeding and depleting natural populations, the choice is easy, but it's not that easy to make it into fact, unfortunately. I have yet to see that the abundance of Testudo- be they Russians, Balkan, North-African or Middle East races- will originate in the successful, but exagerated captive breeding...
But why not? Because that for a commercial breeder, Testudo sp. are far more difficult to became mass-produced than (temperate) Emydids; so consequently, proportionally more difficult to keep by an amateur, many tortoise falling ill or dying, so no aditional captive perpetuation, but continuous imports of WC individuals, until total depletion in their countries of origin.

These should be the 4 pillars of chelonian- and not only- breeding ethics.

****(APPLAUSE)**** :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top