The End Of Pyramiding

Tom

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Ed, we are asking you to share what your research and experience has taught you. You came on and said you'd bet my older sulcatas pyramided because my temps were wrong, but you never said what the right temps are. Do you really expect every single one of us to raise dozens of hatchlings, for ten years, in an experimental fashion, with different temps to see which temp works the best? Isn't the point of this forum to share information about the best way to keep all of our tortoises as healthy as possible? That's what the point is for me.

You clearly know more and have more experience that most of us, but you want us to somehow earn the knowledge by wasting hours of our time searching through tens of thousands of old posts for something we may never find and have no idea how to look for? I'm happy to do a search. Can you at least give us the title of the thread to look for?

We will all eventually figure it out, as you have, but do you wish all of our tortoises to suffer the consequences of trial and error, as yours have?

mightyclyde said:
I am excited about the experiment. I think it has possibilities. However, it seems that duplicating the experiments will be difficult for anyone else, as none of it seems to be measurable in any way. "frequent" mistings, "high" humidity, soak(s)... can mean anything. Completely subjective.

Good point mc. I'll be as precise as possible when it comes to describing exactly what I do for these guys.

My main objective, however, is to publicly demonstrate the difference between raising them dry (all of my current and past adults) and raising them "wet" (my current hatchlings), with all other variables remaining as constant as possible. I'm no scientist and three hatchlings does not a viable study make. I'm just trying to further tortoise knowledge a bit. If nothing else, the whole thing is just for my own edification. If someone else is interested or can somehow benefit from what I'm doing here, all the better.
 

chadk

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I think I recall Ed mentioning 85 degrees in another recent post.
 

Yvonne G

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chadk said:
I think I recall Ed mentioning 85 degrees in another recent post.

Well, most of us have always said the turtle or tortoise needs to be AT LEAST 80 degrees to digest his food. I was thinking Ed meant something completely different, not just 5 degrees.
 

DeanS

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85 seems a minimum to me...because it's probably 85 -95 in the burrow (in the Sahara)...but direct sunlight is going to be upwards of 125 and filtered sunlight (shade) is going to be 100 -115. Burrows are going to be the ONLY source of humidity from plant roots, animal respiration and such and they do get dripping wet underground...ARCHIVES hell! It's mostly common sense.
 

reptylefreek

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Can genetics play ANY role in pyrimiding? Alot of people compare a torts shell to a persons fingernail. Well some people just have a gene that makes them have extremely unhealthy nails. I know some torts or more prone to pyrimiding then others, but could some individual torts be just genetically prone to pyrimid no matter what? Also, I have been really thinking about spring mix as a main staple. I heard somewhere on this forum that chard is high in oxalic acid, as well as spinich, and my spring mix i buy has quite a bit of chard and some spinich in it. If a person never picked it out, could that have any effects on pyrimiding? I have actually switched back to buying everything seperately so I know exactly what they are getting.

There was recently a new member that keeps a Leopard, its 20 years old and has a perfect shell. This person did live in a high humidity climate but also fed a good bit of friut and things deemed "unhealthy" for that species. I really would like to see someone also test a diet theory as well. TOM: have you thought of this. Use one sully for the "humidity theory" and one with a "diet theory"
 

dmmj

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I have seen studies about humidity and pyramiding, but sadly I have not seen any done on genetics, but I think it is a enviromental factor myself, not a genetic one.
 

-EJ

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this list has turned into the very same as another we all know and love.

Take care folks.

emysemys said:
-EJ said:
I'd like to see a photo of that leopard.

LOL! Ed...to see the photo you're going to have to go back through the archives and look for it!!!!! (and don't any of you do the work for him)
 

Tom

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reptylefreek said:
Can genetics play ANY role in pyrimiding? Alot of people compare a torts shell to a persons fingernail. Well some people just have a gene that makes them have extremely unhealthy nails. I know some torts or more prone to pyrimiding then others, but could some individual torts be just genetically prone to pyrimid no matter what? Also, I have been really thinking about spring mix as a main staple. I heard somewhere on this forum that chard is high in oxalic acid, as well as spinich, and my spring mix i buy has quite a bit of chard and some spinich in it. If a person never picked it out, could that have any effects on pyrimiding? I have actually switched back to buying everything seperately so I know exactly what they are getting.

There was recently a new member that keeps a Leopard, its 20 years old and has a perfect shell. This person did live in a high humidity climate but also fed a good bit of friut and things deemed "unhealthy" for that species. I really would like to see someone also test a diet theory as well. TOM: have you thought of this. Use one sully for the "humidity theory" and one with a "diet theory"

Interesting that you should say this. We will see, at least to some degree, if genetics play a role because these three hatchlings are the offspring of my older, dry raised, pyramided ones. If genetics play a big role, I'd expect these ones to pyramid too.

I've got some more unrelated hatchlings on the way, and I intend to do diet, and alternative heat sources (underbelly heat mat instead of over head lights), as well as humidity, with two additional groups.

For the current group, which is two right now, but expecting a third to join us any day now, dry vs. wet, is the only variable that I'm changing from how I raised the others.
 

chairman

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Yvonne G

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Mike: Thanks for doing the searching for us. I really DO appreciate it. And in re-reading Ed's old posts, I have to admit, he's changed. He used to be a lot more forgiving in the "olden days."
 

reptylefreek

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Ed... the new member joined very recently and I beleive the pictures would be in the leopard section. Under something like New tortoise forum member, old leopard owner. should be in the first couple pages. Pictures are the first post. I agree that some people dont wanna do the research theirselves and rely on instant answers from the people who did do their homework, but come on Ed, this cant be a "do as I say, not as I do". Or it can and it would make no sence at all. I would love for you to see these pictures if you haven't already.
 

Yvonne G

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Why did you do that when he couldn't show us the courtesy of an answer? Oh, I know...it was the golden rule thingey.
 

reptylefreek

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Just one thing... I really hope this experiment goes beyond sulcatas. I hope people learn more about ALL species with this experiment :p
 

Tom

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I've got it in the works to do this with some Leopards as well. Others will have to try out what we learn here on other species. I wish I had the time and resources to just raise all sort of hatchlings of many species and try different things. In a sense, that is what we all do over our lifetimes.

I think a huge benefit of participating in a forum like this is that we CAN learn from what everybody else is doing. I can't raise a whole bunch of every species with different variables, but collectively, that is exactly what we are all doing. Its been a number of years since I've had a redfoot, but I've learned a ton about them from Terry K. and the rest of you redfoot keepers. I've learned a whole lot of new stuff since I discovered this forum.

Seems appropriate to say: Thanks everyone!
 

terryo

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I know this thread is about tortoises, but I was thinking about my boxies too. I only have the one tortoise, and he was raised with lots of humidity and a misting every time he stepped out of his hide, and so far he is very smooth. For the past thirty years I've been involved with boxies, as was my father before me. Way before there was a computer in my house, I always followed what my Dad did with his babies. I'm going back many, many years now. When he would find a hatchling in the yard, (he never incubated eggs) he would bring it in and keep it in a little plastic tub with wet moss. He always stressed humidity to me with the boxies. Reading this thread I can't stop thinking of him now and how he would have loved this forum, and how much he could have contributed. I know this is off topic, but I just had to throw it in. Sorry.
 

cdmay

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terryo said:
I know this thread is about tortoises, but I was thinking about my boxies too. I only have the one tortoise, and he was raised with lots of humidity and a misting every time he stepped out of his hide, and so far he is very smooth. For the past thirty years I've been involved with boxies, as was my father before me. Way before there was a computer in my house, I always followed what my Dad did with his babies. I'm going back many, many years now. When he would find a hatchling in the yard, (he never incubated eggs) he would bring it in and keep it in a little plastic tub with wet moss. He always stressed humidity to me with the boxies. Reading this thread I can't stop thinking of him now and how he would have loved this forum, and how much he could have contributed. I know this is off topic, but I just had to throw it in. Sorry.
Its not off topic. The thread is about pyramiding and pyramiding can occur in other chelonians besides tortoises and box turtles can get screwed up shells too.
Your dad seems to have been one of those people who figured out what to do based on observation of how the box turtles lived in the wild. From those observations he probably reasoned on the best way to keep the hatchlings.
I am sure he would have had some good insight to add to the forum and I doubt very much he would have come off as pompous or a know-it-all.
 

Tom

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Update: Both hatchlings have absorbed their yolk sacks and are doing what sulcatas do best. Eating! No sign of number three yet, but I'm still expecting him to hatch. Here are some pics:

First day in their new home. I was going to put them into a tub on my new tortoise rack, but I decided against it for two reasons. Number 1: Its too big and I'm afraid I'd lose them in there. Too many places for them to flip too. Number 2: I started my adults in this same 20 long back in '98. Just imagine it with rabbit pellets, no water dish, and a cardboard cereal box for a hide instead of the humid hide box. I'm doing everything possible to raise them identically, except for humidity. They will move into an open topped tub when they get bigger, just like my adults did.
66aq9i.jpg


Sorry for the bad pic, but I though it would be important to show the living conditions. You can see the remote probe in the above pic. Its the little white plastic rectangular box on top of the humid hide box. This is the base unit. Top number, 78, is the temp where the probe sits. Next number, 82%, is humidity at the probe. Its 99% inside the hide box. Next two numbers are the high and low over the last 24 hour period. It was sitting somewhere else when it picked up that 73. This was the first day I set it up. Last two numbers are temp, 81 and humidity 64% at the base unit. Just to clarify; the probe is in the tank with the babies and the base unit is sitting on the table in front of the tank.
set3y1.jpg


First soak. A daily occurrence.
fy25wk.jpg


Oh, I forgot to mention that Ava (with minimal help from my wife) decided to name them Tuck and Tulee. If number three ever hatches he'll be Trey. I have no idea where she came up with these.
 

ChiKat

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Awww they are too cute!
I love the names Ava picked :) when my cousin was 3 he named one of his toys 'Trent' haha where do they come up with these things?
Thanks for the update, I can't wait to watch them grow..
smoothly!
 

Tom

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ChiKat said:
Awww they are too cute!
I love the names Ava picked :) when my cousin was 3 he named one of his toys 'Trent' haha where do they come up with these things?
Thanks for the update, I can't wait to watch them grow..
smoothly!

I'm anxious too. I must check on them 50 times a day. They got their first grape leaves today.
 
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