Sulcata with weak back legs

[Skoghest]

Hi all,

I am desperate for any advice. I started caring for an 18yo sulcata 3 years ago for a nonprofit. He unfortunately has not had the best care, so I have been trying to improve it as well as I can. The problem is he's been limping for the past year, and it has progressed over the last couple months to barely using his back legs at all. When he walks he drops from side to side or just drags his shell because his back legs can't support his full weight (see attached video). Luckily he is otherwise healthy, but he is still a relatively young tortoise so I want to make sure he is not in pain and to hopefully keep him mobile for the rest of his life.

We live in a small town, so our vet has seen a few sulcatas before but it's not his main expertise. Luckily we were able to get funding to give him a radiograph and blood test. Here are his results:

Blood
PCV actually a touch high, proteins also. Potassium is high, Sodium and Chloride low, but the only thing that is really appreciable is the K+ at 12.7 (normal listed as 3.6 – 6)
Radiograph (x-ray)
Two similar osseous lesions causing marked enlargement of the included left tarsus and right carpus
Large, smoothly marginated mineral body occupies each respective joint
Sharply demarcated from surrounding soft tissues. The mineral is homogeneously porous, with HU values from 300-600+
No distinction of normal carpal or tarsal bones Surrounds and causes lysis of the distal left tibia and fibula as well as the distal right radius
Remaining included musculoskeletal structures are normal
Numerous small calculi mixed with mineralized sediment dependently within the urinary bladder. Remaining coelomic structures are unremarkable
Conclusions: Left tarsal and right carpal osseous bodies and associated joint enlargement with involvement of adjacent bones, consider gout. Cystolithiasis.

They also suspect it could be a tumor. We have put him on pain meds/anti-inflammatories but it doesn't seem to make a difference. We are just trying to give him as much exercise outside as possible and focus on hydration/nutrition.

Background info:
He normally lives in a large greenhouse with a hide and burrow, and the room always stays between 60-70F (night) and 80-110F (day).

Old Diet (for 15 years)
- Inappropriate produce (fruits, high oxalic acid greens, etc)
- Incorrect Mazuri (forest tort kind with lots of protein)
- No hay
- No soaking

New Diet (for 3 years)
- Soaked Mazuri (desert LS)
- Soaked orchard & timothy hay
- Appropriate veggies, cactus & flowers 1x/wk
- Lawn grass, dandelion, clover (summer/spring only)
- Soaked weekly(ish)

If any other information would be helpful please let me know. I would love any insights into things I can try, experts to talk to, and just encouragement about this situation. I am so worried about him and want him to be able to walk for the long life ahead of him. TYIA

 

[EppsDynasty]

I'm not a medical expert but consider myself an expert on Love and GREAT JOB. It is tough (to say the least) when you take over care when there has been mis management of a torts health. It is a life where your joy comes from knowing you did better, you gave all you could and in that came comfort. There are experts here that will have hopefully more answers for you, wishing you the the best and keep up the good work.
Have you tried water therapy? Putting him in water in order to lessen the weight on the legs.

 

[wellington]

First thing I see is 60-70 at night is to cold. Temp never below 80 even at night, and he shouldn't have toive in a constant 110 during the day. He needs 80-90 during the day with only a basking area of 95-100. He should be able to get out of the basking area or the 110 and into a cooler 80 area. g
Get temps changed ASAP.
Also how big is this greenhouse? He needs lots of room, large yard or he will not be able to walk properly or get insides moving.
Being to cold also inhibits digestion and keeping things inside working.
Lots of hydration from his poor diet in the past. They can sometimes not walk right due to a stone forming.
An X-ray probably would be a good idea.

 

[TammyJ]

Thanks for taking care and trying to help him. I was thinking water therapy too, along with correct temperatures, lots of space and the improved diet. Keep us updated please!

 

[Tom]

Sounds like metabolic bone disease and/or bladder stones.

MBD is from lack of UV and/or poor diet. Does he ever get direct sunshine, or is he only inside the green house year round?

Bladder stones are from lack of walking and/or dehydration. How large is the greenhouse and does he have a larger yard to walk in in fair weather? How long do you soak him for and what are you soaking him in?

Orchard grass hay is great. I would not use Timothy. Bermuda hay is good if you want a second type to use. The rest of the diet sounds really good now.

I agree 60-70 is way too cool at night. No lower than 80 day or night for sulcatas. They live underground where they come from and ground temps are 80-85 all year long. There is no "winter". Day time highs are around 100 above ground all year long, so they stay underground to avoid hot days and cool nights. You can accomplish this with a simple heated night house. This concept works exceptionally well for sulcatas because the night box somewhat simulates a warm burrow for them. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

I also agree that 110 is way too hot. Mine all use burrows in summer to avoid our 100+ day time high temps.

 

[Skoghest]

First thing I see is 60-70 at night is to cold. Temp never below 80 even at night, and he shouldn't have toive in a constant 110 during the day. He needs 80-90 during the day with only a basking area of 95-100. He should be able to get out of the basking area or the 110 and into a cooler 80 area. g
Get temps changed ASAP.
Also how big is this greenhouse? He needs lots of room, large yard or he will not be able to walk properly or get insides moving.
Being to cold also inhibits digestion and keeping things inside working.
Lots of hydration from his poor diet in the past. They can sometimes not walk right due to a stone forming.
An X-ray probably would be a good idea.

No stones showed on the x-ray luckily. The greenhouse is large and has spots for thermoregulation (those temps were extreme max and min but you're right that the range should still be smaller). I'll be sure to soak him more for hydration too. Thanks for your help

 

[Skoghest]

Sounds like metabolic bone disease and/or bladder stones.

MBD is from lack of UV and/or poor diet. Does he ever get direct sunshine, or is he only inside the green house year round?

Bladder stones are from lack of walking and/or dehydration. How large is the greenhouse and does he have a larger yard to walk in in fair weather? How long do you soak him for and what are you soaking him in?

Orchard grass hay is great. I would not use Timothy. Bermuda hay is good if you want a second type to use. The rest of the diet sounds really good now.

I agree 60-70 is way too cool at night. No lower than 80 day or night for sulcatas. They live underground where they come from and ground temps are 80-85 all year long. There is no "winter". Day time highs are around 100 above ground all year long, so they stay underground to avoid hot days and cool nights. You can accomplish this with a simple heated night house. This concept works exceptionally well for sulcatas because the night box somewhat simulates a warm burrow for them. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

I also agree that 110 is way too hot. Mine all use burrows in summer to avoid our 100+ day time high temps.

Those temps are for the whole room, he has cool hides/burrows to escape into. But you're right, the temp range could be better. Thanks for letting me know about timothy hay. The greenhouse is large and we let him out every day that the weather is good, but I do need to be soaking him more. He just hates it so much, lol. Thank you for your help and the links.

 

[Skoghest]

I'm not a medical expert but consider myself an expert on Love and GREAT JOB. It is tough (to say the least) when you take over care when there has been mis management of a torts health. It is a life where your joy comes from knowing you did better, you gave all you could and in that came comfort. There are experts here that will have hopefully more answers for you, wishing you the the best and keep up the good work.
Have you tried water therapy? Putting him in water in order to lessen the weight on the legs.

Thank you <3 good idea on water therapy. I have tried a skateboard but he wasn't a fan haha

 

[wellington]

Thank you <3 good idea on water therapy. I have tried a skateboard but he wasn't a fan haha

I used water therapy many years ago. I recommend it often. However, usually for tortoises that has been living in small enclosures and not the best care or room to roam. This was the reason I had to use it on a leopard rescue
It may help yours, but I think the cause needs to be found. If the greenhouse is actually big enough for his size and he gets a lot of exercise then the room isn't the problem. Diet seems good, temps too cold.
Get the other things fixed and see how he does. A water therapy has to be in deep enough water he has to swim, using the legs and building strength.

 

[Tom]

The greenhouse is large and we let him out every day that the weather is good...

How large? What are the dimensions? When you say you let him "out", do you mean out in to the green house, or out into an outdoor pen? I ask because if the tortoise is outside getting direct sunshine on a regular basis, this would eliminate MBD based on the diet you've been offering for three years.

The size of the greenhouse, or outdoor enclosure if there is one, can help us determine if lack of space is the issue.