SUDAN UPDATE (PHOTO HEAVY)

[DeanS]

As summer's end nears...I thought I'd update you on the Sudans. A little disappointed in their progress...even though my biggest is a hair bigger than Tom's biggest...the other five are lagging WAY behind...the second largest being less than half the size of the largest...it'll be interesting to see how this plays out!

So here we go...smallest to largest! And another thing, they have all been given names based on Sin City characters...don't know why really...just better than saying the third smallest and fourth largest...you get the picture...they hatched out around May 20, 2012

Miho...3.5" 138g

Wendy...4" 225g

Goldie...4.5" 257g

Hartigan...5.5" 592g

Dwight...5.75" 612g

Marv...8.25" 1314g

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Cardinal Roark: Is killing me going to bring you joy?
Marv: Not in the killing. But everything leading up to it is gonna be a gas.

Yeah cool tortoises.

Will

 

[morloch]

They look beautiful!!

 

[DeanS]

Just for kicks...here's a shot of them soaking. It's obvious how they differ in size from one to the next!

 

[Yvonne G]

Gosh those are pretty tortoises. I'm wondering if the huge front leg scales is a Sudan trait. I know that most of our sulcatas here in the U.S. are mutts, and some have smooth front leg scales, and some have rough scales, like your babies'. I hope you keep them long enough for us to see how big they get. I think my mutt, Dudley, has stopped growing and he's about 23 years old. So we don't really have too long to wait!

 

[Pokeymeg]

Wow, what a difference in sizes!! They all look so happy and healthy though Love that first shot! (Maybe calendar worthy?? =P)

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Miho may be the tiniest but he has a lot to say. I love that picture, too. What an amazing array of sizes from, I am guessing, siblings. They all have beautiful in common. I think they all look great! Thanks for sharing Dean. They're cool. Those front legs, large scales like Yvonne noticed, are killer!

 

[Vegas_Leopard]

Blondie, almost looks Ivory. It's incredible that her shell is that light. You've got some beautiful Sudans, regardless of the growth differences. It's crazy to see the size differences when once upon a time they were all about the same size. Beautiful though!

 

[cemmons12]

Very freaking nice looking, I really like Hartigan!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Re: RE: SUDAN UPDATE (PHOTO HEAVY)

I really like Hartigan!

That is my fav, too

thanks for sharing

Sent from my TFOapp

 

[DeanS]

Blondie, almost looks Ivory. It's incredible that her shell is that light. You've got some beautiful Sudans, regardless of the growth differences. It's crazy to see the size differences when once upon a time they were all about the same size. Beautiful though!

That's funny! Tom's got one named Blondie...mine is Goldie. Ironically, she was one of Tom's, as well! But, she wasn't keeping up with the others...so I took her and another. Unfortunately, her sibling didn't last a week...and, in fact, Goldie had gone from 245g when I got her from Tom, down to 226g...and has slowly started to gain in the past month.

Interesting, yet sad, note: Tom and I had acquired 20 hatchlings from Brad...11 remain!

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I LIKE THE LITTLE BIG MOUTH MIHO... oops yelling ... just a little bit more than the others. They are all so cool.
Okay, that last piece of news bummed me out. The 11 survivors out of 20. You and Tom are excellent, experienced keepers. Any idea as to why so much, I am assuming, hatchling failure syndrome? I mean, these are big phat, fat, huge (sturdy) sulcata from the Sudan (not an easy land). I always wonder when they do not make it. Hope you do not mind my asking.

 

[wellington]

That's sad. I hadn't realized they died. Yours are looking nice. Have you guys tossed around any thoughts on the possible causes of the size difference and deaths?

 

[Tom]

They didn't all die. Some were given away. I necropsied two of them and their intestinal tracts were all blocked up. I mistakenly assumed the intestines were blocked with vermiculite. The breeder does not use a brooder box and leaves the babies in the incubator for a few days while they absorb their yolk sacs. Tyler, my friend, came on and said he does the same thing, but his babies all pass the vermiculite and turn out fine. Then the breeder came on and told me I was wrong. It couldn't be vermiculite since he only uses perlite. While my detractors gleefully gloated at my incorrect assumption, the perlite explanation actually made a lot more sense. The material my vet found in the intestine was "gray sandy sludge". I incorrectly jumped to a conclusion since most people use vermiculite, but this didn't explain why Tyler's babies don't get this problem, or my hatchlings. I have to assume the perlite ingestion and lack of soaking are the cause of the problem. That is what makes sense based on my experience. I do not have an explanation for why some do okay and some don't. I would guess it has to do with how much perlite they ingested and how long after hatching they get their first soak. It should also be noted that ALL of my hatchlings that are raised in the exact same conditions as all of the Sudan hatchlings turn out 100% perfectly. In fact I had the same 4x8' enclosure divided into two 4x4 halves. I had zero problems on the side with my babies, and about two thirds of the Sudan hatchlings had problems in the exact same enclosure, with the exact same routine and the exact same diet.

 

[wellington]

Thanks for clarifying Tom. Glad it wasn't as many deaths as assumed.

 

[TommyZ]

Hey Tom,

Just wondering, could there possibly have been some genetic issue with the parents that they could have passed on to the offspring that causes the unusual growth and the deaths? Just thinking out loud.... I ask cuz i find it odd one side of enclosure did thrived and other half didnt...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TortForum mobile app

 

[sibi]

Beautiful! I like Blondie. She almost looks ivory.

 

[N2TORTS]

very nice Dean~o ... of course I'm partial to the blonde one~

 

[Tom]

Hey Tom,

Just wondering, could there possibly have been some genetic issue with the parents that they could have passed on to the offspring that causes the unusual growth and the deaths? Just thinking out loud.... I ask cuz i find it odd one side of enclosure did thrived and other half didnt...

This is physically possible, but very unlikely. The breeder knows what he's doing and most of the adults are wild caught imports, if I'm not mistaken. Plus the babies were supposed to be from multiple clutches.

It seems to me that since they were getting equal care, that the problem must be due to something that happened before the new ones came into my possession. All of the ones I hatched using vermiculite as an incubation media, brooder boxes as soon as they step out of their egg, and soaked daily were fine. They ones incubated on perlite, left in the incubator for several days, and soaked weekly, were not all fine.

Another factor to consider, because some people just like to point fingers at me, and I'm sure they will be along shortly, is that Dean housed his differently than I did, but we saw nearly identical ratios of normal healthy growing babies to problem babies. We drove out to meet the breeder together, and I dropped Dean off at home, where he chose his babies out of the box that they were handed to us in. I never even touched or had any influence whatsoever on Dean's babies. They went straight from the breeder to his house and didn't leave the breeders box until they were moved directly into Dean's enclosure.

 

[DeanS]

They didn't all die. Some were given away..

My mistake...I'm always the LAST to know!