substrate vs soil....and where to get it

[jojodesca]

Hello

I usually use the eco coco (that you put it water to expand) from Petco for my ttbt. I now have a bigger vivarium and wanted to know what else to use. can I buy a bag of soil from home depot?...or what? I know not to use fertilized type stuff....i was wondering if maybe ORGANIC would would...I can use some advice...thanks

 

[ascott]

yes, organic soil is perfect to mix with the coco coir....as you said, chemical and fertilizer free

 

[turtlemann2]

dont forget perlite dont get any with this either! i mix one bag sterile top soil and peat moss until it "looks" right then every month or two i dump it out in a flower pot and will use it for gardening : ) its alot cheaper in the long run but a bag of peat moss should cost 10$ so depending the upfront cost will be larger but last a year or more : )

 

[terryo]

I just use a bag of garden soil, mixed with peat moss or coco coir....then I throw in a little compost from my pile, because it has loads of worms and pill bugs. When I change all the vivariums in the Fall, I do the same thing as Scott. I dump all the old substrate in my flower garden. Especially from the Cherry Heads....great fertilizer for the flowers.

 

[Tccarolina]

Don't be too worried about avoiding soil with fertilizer in it. All soil has fertilizer in it, otherwise plants won't grow in it. Fertilizer is simply the nutrients plants need to grow, and most basic fertilizers are the same thing that is already present in the soil.
I'm just saying, you don't need to go to extremes in time and expense to avoid it.

Steve

 

[jojodesca]

I bought a bag of topsoil...i hope it works

 

[Tccarolina]

Looks good!

 

[dmarcus]

I use top soil with peat moss mixture, they are able to burrow down into it very easy and stuff grows pretty good in it..

 

[turtlemann2]

thats perfect in fact earth gro is the brand i buy also

 

[Saloli]

Don't be too worried about avoiding soil with fertilizer in it. All soil has fertilizer in it, otherwise plants won't grow in it. Fertilizer is simply the nutrients plants need to grow, and most basic fertilizers are the same thing that is already present in the soil.
I'm just saying, you don't need to go to extremes in time and expense to avoid it.

Steve

Well Steve you are right and wrong on this one. All soils have elements and compounds NPK but artificial fertilizers are concentrated and are in fact toxic. Though organic fertilizers are derived from biological sources and are digestible, I personally would not eat them. I would not use artificial (chemical) fertilizer even if it was given to me. It kills the soil fauna. Plus it is linked to several disorders in humans.

 

[zesty_17]

i wouldn't want to take a chance with the fertilizers, even high concentrations of natural ammonia is bad for reptiles (& many animals for that matter). Interesting factoid... did you know that even small amounts of cat urine can kill a kangaroo? It's natural, but deadly.

 

[Tccarolina]

i wouldn't want to take a chance with the fertilizers, even high concentrations of natural ammonia is bad for reptiles (& many animals for that matter). Interesting factoid... did you know that even small amounts of cat urine can kill a kangaroo? It's natural, but deadly.

Ammonia doesn't stay ammonia in the soil. It becomes postitively charged ammonium in the soil joining the very necessary cations that help give soil structure and life. It's in all soils, and is necessary for plants to grow. It doesn't fume, which is the problem with ammonia.
Sure if you add a lot of urine to your tortoises pen, you're going to get a lot of ammonia building up, but you will have no ammonia gassing off from any purchased garden soils.

I didn't know that about cat urine! Next time I'm in kangaroo country, I'll have to keep some on hand in case I get into a tight spot.

 

[Laura]

i cant find any info on the cat urine/kangaroo thing...where did you get that info?
Most nurserys sell top soil, in bags or by the truck load!

 

[Saloli]

topsoil is a catch all phrase for soil that is scraped off before construction. It is a mix of humus and inorganic soil ( subsoil). Alot of the bag stuff is treated with fungicides and sometimes herbicides. Ammonium is safe in the amounts found in natural soils.

 

[Tccarolina]

Well Steve you are right and wrong on this one. All soils have elements and compounds NPK but artificial fertilizers are concentrated and are in fact toxic. Though organic fertilizers are derived from biological sources and are digestible, I personally would not eat them. I would not use artificial (chemical) fertilizer even if it was given to me. It kills the soil fauna. Plus it is linked to several disorders in humans.

I don’t think I’m wrong here.
All soils have elements - Everything is made of elements!
Yes, artificial fertilizers ARE toxic, because they are very concentrated. Like table salt. Eat too much and it’ll kill you. Plus, they are designed for plants and not to be eaten straight in quantity. I’m assuming you’re talking about dry fertilizers here. Once that dry fertilizer salt dissolves it joins all the other nutrients in the soil and is entirely different in form.
Liquid fertilizers dissolve much faster, and are often more efficient.
Organic fertilizers are not called organic because they are made from organic (life-based) materials. They are called organic only if they are organically certified. That just means they cannot be made from from synthetic sources or using chemical processes to make them. Many organic fertilizers are mined minerals, like sulfur, sulfate of potash, and magnesium sulfate. These would be toxic if you ate too much.

Chemically produced fertilizers do not kill soil fauna! Soil microorganisms are what give live to the soil and they feed on fertilizers. Sterile soil will not grow plants. The microbes are responsible for breaking down fertilizers and other nutrients of all kinds into forms that plants can use. Microbes bloom after fertilizer applications. It’s a food source. Now, if you apply too much fertilizer at once , it will make the soil too salty temporarily, and some microbes will die. But as soon as that salt is diluted they will bloom and re-colonize that now rich soil.

Show me any credible studies that show that fertilized crops are linked to several disorders in humans. They don’t exist. The fertilizers are simply concentrated nutrients plants need for growth.

Let’s look at what fertilizers are. This will get way too long if I go into each of the micronutrients necessary for plant life. So I’m going to stick with the top 3 of the 6 macro nutrients that plants most need to produce their biological processes; Nitrogen (N), Phosphorus (P), an Potassium (K). I'm also going to try to keep it simple.

Nitrogen in the soil exists in three forms; Urea, Ammonium, and Nitrate. Urea is leachable, and also can dissipate into the atmosphere. Microbes convert it to Ammonium, which is not leachable. Other microbes convert that to Nitrate. Nitrates are the form most preferred and most easily usable by plants, although they can use all three.
Naturally, lightning produces large amounts of nitrates, which fall to the earth and become fertilizer. Animal feces and decomposing plants supply some versions of all three forms.
Most chemical nitrogen fertilizers are made ENTIRELY of differing portions of urea, ammonium, and nitrates. When they are not, it is because they have other nutrients blended in. There are NO inert ingredients, or carriers included. I assume you’ve had some chemistry, and understand that chemically nitrate is nitrate, and urea is urea, and ammonium is ammonium, regardless of source of origin.

Potassium is available from several sources. It is mined as potassium sulfate, and processed from inland seas (Great Salt Lake, Dead Sea), making potassium chloride. These are used directly as fertilizers. Potassium sulfate dissolves into the soil as K+ and SO4 2-, or potassium ions and sulfate ions. These are the forms Potassium and sulfur are needed by plants. Potassium chloride is not as good, since many crops don’t like high levels of chlorides. But it’s hardly dangerous. When you dissolve table salt into water, you get sodium ions and chlorides. Other liquid formulations are potassium nitrate (100 % of two plant nutrients, potassium and Nitrate Nitrogen), potassium thiosulfate (potassium plus a complexed form of sulfate that requires soil microbes go convert it to sulfate, the form of sulfur plants need), and potassium carbonate (my personal favorite, due to it’s low salt index).

Phosphorous is mined as phosphate rock and is processed . . . . you get the idea.

topsoil is a catch all phrase for soil that is scraped off before construction. It is a mix of humus and inorganic soil ( subsoil). Alot of the bag stuff is treated with fungicides and sometimes herbicides. Ammonium is safe in the amounts found in natural soils.

Top soil is defined generally as the top 2 feet of soil that plants are growing in. Over the millennia plant roots remove many of the nutrients from deep soils and as the die, shed leaves, etc, they return these nutrients to the surface, where in this continual cycle, they become concentrated in the top couple of feet. This is the fertile portion of the soil, and why topsoil is desirable. Most commercially bagged topsoils are actual topsoil with compost and sand added. Sometimes perlite is added to help with water storage and drainage. It is a porous rock. When fertilizer is added, it is almost always a liquid fertilizer that is added to the mix, so there are no concentrated particles for your turtles to eat. Also, the fertilizer is thoroughly blended in and in very low concentrations. The producers don’t want plants to die from too high fertilizer salt concentrations. These mixes are blended to be safe for even the most sensitive of plants.
Further, it seems rather unlikely that topsoil that is intended to put in your flowerbeds is treated with herbicides. That would be quite a lawsuit waiting to happen! Can you back that up with a credible source? Back the fungicide claim up as well while you're at it.

Ammonium is the most stable of all the forms of soil nitrogen in the soil and varies tremendously depending on the soil. There is no one ‘typical’ level in natural soils. It is a cation in the soil and is part of the cation community that help give soil it’s structure. These main cations are in order: Calcium 2+, Magnesium 2+, Potassium +, Sodium +, and Hydrogen +. Ammonium comes after these, and even in high concentrations, is a very minor constituent. In no way would it ever be a problem for your turtles or tortoises, even in highly fertilized environments (ok maybe a fertilizer spill!). Plants would cease to grow long before your tortoises would be endangered. Ammonia from urine is a different matter. It is different from ammonium.

This is what I went to school for, and what I do for a living. I have a bachelor’s degree in plant science and a minors in plant protection science. I’m an agricultural consultant specializing in plant nutrition. I work primarily with almond and walnut growers dealing with nutrition and pest management issues.

Hope this helps,
Steve

 

[turtlemann2]

Dang!
Steve it sounds like you know what your talking about here : )