Stunted Growth, poor environment?

[Morlas Mama]

We've had Morla about a month now and I have not seen very much physical growth. Her/his history is unclear as I received her from someone who could not care for her. Here is what I do know about her history:

She is at maxium 7-9 months old. The woman I got her from had her in her care for 4 months; her diet was spring mix grocery store bagged food, no calcium/vitamin supplements, dry environment, heat lamp (no temps known), no UVA/UVB, daily baths and housed with a sibling of the same age.

Since we have taken her in her care has changed. I follow Tom's care sheet like the tort bible. Her environment now; she eats a varied daily diet (grass, wheat grass, mazuri, cactus, sprouts, bromeliads, dandelion, etc), cuttlebone powder 2x a week, two daily baths, 4 microclimate (80° cool, 80-85°/99 humidity, 110-115°/80 humidity, 85-110°/90 humity), UVB exposure 12 hrs daily, reptical vitamin baths 1 per week (she won't eat food sprinkled with it), two humid hides, multiple water sprays to shell daily and housed alone. She is in an enclosed 3ft x 2ft glass tank, foiled top.

Her over all health: eating fine (she has favorite foods), pooping fine, peeing fine (white milky urates), energy levels seem fine (she climbs on everything). She seems a little rounder in the belly since I got her and her shell is rounding out nicely in comparison to when I received her, but she is still the same length and size as a month ago. Should I buy a scale and monitor weight gain/loss?

I'm at a loss why she doesn't seem to be growing. I have checked her habitat for mold, mildew, signs of any troubles and nothing. Am I expecting her to grow too quickly? Is it possible the care she received the first 4-6 months of her life will forever negatively impact her? Can she overcome that and will she catch up developmentally? What can I do to make sure she thrives and not just survives? Any opinions on her situation and how I can help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Blakem]

I would buy a scale. That'll determine whether it's gaining any weight. Sometimes, seeing it everyday is hard to tell whether they've grown. A scale should change that for you. Your little one might still adjusting and getting used to the setup. You should see some gains if its not already changed. I wouldn't worry, just get a scale. My food scale measured grams, ounces, and pounds. But, my sulcata exceeds the 11 pound weight limit now! Good luck.

 

[mike taylor]

Your freaking out! Calmly sit down and enjoy your tort . Haha They grow slowly when they are kept to dry . But now you have it setup properly so don't worry it'll go soon . The only thing you can do to improve the setup is to go bigger . I would get a scale and keep up with weight . Just because that is one way you can tell it's getting sick . They don't show signs of sickness to you are in trouble . The weight loss will tell you something is up . So it's good to keep up with. Just get weekly or biweekly weights . Because you'll drive yourself crazy with daily weights .

 

[Jodie]

I would buy a scale if for only piece of mind. It sounds like you're doing a good job. A month is not very long to see physical growth.

 

[Blakem]

Do you have access to outside uvb? Even one hour a day is great for them! Which of the four temps is the 85-110? I like to keep mine constant and not have a 25 degree change.

 

[Morlas Mama]

Your freaking out! Calmly sit down and enjoy your tort . Haha They grow slowly when they are kept to dry . But now you have it setup properly so don't worry it'll go soon . The only thing you can do to improve the setup is to go bigger . I would get a scale and keep up with weight . Just because that is one way you can tell it's getting sick . They don't show signs of sickness to you are in trouble . The weight loss will tell you something is up . So it's good to keep up with. Just get weekly or biweekly weights . Because you'll drive yourself crazy with daily weights .

I wasn't trying to come off as panicky lol. Sorry if I did, just seeking advice. When I look at my 7-9 month old tort and she's the size of a 2 month old, I want to know why. Thanks for the advice. Definitely getting a scale!

 

[Morlas Mama]

Do you have access to outside uvb? Even one hour a day is great for them! Which of the four temps is the 85-110? I like to keep mine constant and not have a 25 degree change.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to outside. It's 18° today. When weather permits, she will definitely take more outside light.

As for the temps, each of the four corners of the enclosure is kept at a minimum 80°/80% humidity. I keep four thermometers and four hygrometers in each corner to monitor. This allows her to pick a temp 80-115° And a humidity 80%-99% based on what her body is telling her. So far, she roams all four climates at different times of the day.

 

[mike taylor]

I wasn't trying to come off as panicky lol. Sorry if I did, just seeking advice. When I look at my 7-9 month old tort and she's the size of a 2 month old, I want to know why. Thanks for the advice. Definitely getting a scale!

I know, but I can't say some smart butt if I don't twist things around . Hahaha I like to joke . But going back and reading your basking temperature 110 is a little much . I would drop that down to 95/100 range .

 

[Dizisdalife]

Just keep doing what you are doing and at some point your tortoise will hit a growth spurt that will make you say Wow! Or, someone will stop by, see the tortoise, and ask "is that the same tortoise?" A scale will help you to monitor those small gains along the way.

 

[Morlas Mama]

I know, but I can't say some smart butt if I don't twist things around . Hahaha I like to joke . But going back and reading your basking temperature 110 is a little much . I would drop that down to 95/100 range .

I speak smart*rear it's our first language in my house.

Basking temps down. Got it! Thank you!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

It's true, don't worry but to answer your question:
YES it is highly likely that previous poor conditions would lead to stunted and slow growth.

Even though you have perfect conditions now, it won't cause her to grow at the rate she would have if she had started that way. That's just the way it is. At some point growth will take off but for many that's 1 closer to 2 years after they've been properly housed.
Tom has seen it, I have and many others.

So, now that you know, it'll help you have peace when comparing her growth to humid started Sulcata

 

[Tom]

To explain a little further: When they are subjected to chronic dehydration as hatchlings and babies, it damages their internal organs. To some degree the liver can repair itself, but the kidneys can't. Other than necropsy, there is no way to tell just how many nephrons in the kidney were damaged or destroyed. Some babies have enough remaining nephrons to survive for a few weeks or months and then die. Some die right away. Some of them are able to survive and overcome this early setback, but it takes a long time. Sometimes years. The kidney on a 200 pound male sulcata is going to be much larger and contain more nephrons than the kidney of a 35 gram hatchling. So while those damaged nephrons can never be repaired, new ones will eventually grow if the tortoise can make it over that proverbial hump. I believe good hydration through daily soaks and high humidity helps these disadvantaged young tortoises make it over that hump. So you are doing the right things mostly, but I too would lower that basking temp. Day time ambient highs of 90 are okay in a humid environment, but 115 in the basking area could lead to excessive desiccation. 95-100 for the basking area has proven to work very well.

My Daisy is an example of what we are talking about here. She hardly grew at all for the first two years, even though she behaved normally and ate a lot. Once she got "over that hump", she began to sprout like a bad weed. At 8 years old she is now over 50 pounds. That is pretty good size for an 8 year old female by any standard, raised with any method. By contrast, Trey is a 4.5 year old female that lives in the same enclosure with Daisy and is roughly the same size and weight. Trey had an ideal, well hydrated start with the diet and temps that I recommend in my care sheet. My point is: Don't compare your tortoises growth to that of the ones that have had a "perfect childhood", when yours had a pretty rough start in life. In time, if all goes well, she will catch up and be perfectly fine and healthy.

Charting the weekly weights is a good idea for any tortoise.

Here is a thread showing my Daisy through the years. She is somewhere near the middle of this first long post:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Tom, thanks for elaborating. It always sounds better coming from you.

@KatieandKyle read this thread... Tom explained in more detail what I've been trying to share with you about your babies. Elmo is "over the hump" Tom mentioned but as you can tell when comparing him to Will's "perfect childhood" babies, there is size/ growth difference.

Morla, hope this discussion is helping you

 

[Gillian M]

You needn't worry. I really do think that your tort is diong fine, it'll just take it some time till it adapts to the new environment...torts do not lke change. Besides, one cannot expect to see physical change overnight!

 

[Morlas Mama]

To explain a little further: When they are subjected to chronic dehydration as hatchlings and babies, it damages their internal organs. To some degree the liver can repair itself, but the kidneys can't. Other than necropsy, there is no way to tell just how many nephrons in the kidney were damaged or destroyed. Some babies have enough remaining nephrons to survive for a few weeks or months and then die. Some die right away. Some of them are able to survive and overcome this early setback, but it takes a long time. Sometimes years. The kidney on a 200 pound male sulcata is going to be much larger and contain more nephrons than the kidney of a 35 gram hatchling. So while those damaged nephrons can never be repaired, new ones will eventually grow if the tortoise can make it over that proverbial hump. I believe good hydration through daily soaks and high humidity helps these disadvantaged young tortoises make it over that hump. So you are doing the right things mostly, but I too would lower that basking temp. Day time ambient highs of 90 are okay in a humid environment, but 115 in the basking area could lead to excessive desiccation. 95-100 for the basking area has proven to work very well...

Thank you for the detailed response @Tom . It's reassuring to know her body and development may be able to catch up over time. If that's the best we can hope for, then I know I did everything I could. She has been in my care now for a month, so I am hoping her chances of dying on me are getting less and less by the day. I'm still very unsure as to what constitutes as normal lengths of times with these torts and various issues.

I have decreased basking temps to no more than 100. I bought a scale so I can start tracking her growth, although now, I think I will concentrate more on learning better husbandry and not make myself crazy about her growth. I antiquate everything back to my medical background. So if she's eating, pooping, drinking and peeing then I feel like she is thriving. It's good to know the specifics on the long term affects of her "childhood" so I know what to expect for her. Her tort sibling is still under the care of the woman who gave her to me. I've printed out your caresheet for her and I'm always bringing her items for her tort. Today I brought her wheat grass and a bromeliade. I feel horrible knowing the sibling is still living in that environment, but I simply could not house 2 of them in the future. All I can do is try to help pass along information and provide items that I hope she will use.

Thanks again for the explanation. I feel better prepared having it.

Sarah

 

[Morlas Mama]

Update: I was able to do a fecal in my lab and Morla does in fact have intestinal parasites. I will try to post pictures of what I can see under the microscope so everyone can see what the parasites look like on a microscopic scale. These "pin" worms are not visible to the naked eye. I'll be starting her deworming treatment as soon as the medication arrives.

 

[Dizisdalife]

Update: I was able to do a fecal in my lab and Morla does in fact have intestinal parasites. I will try to post pictures of what I can see under the microscope so everyone can see what the parasites look like on a microscopic scale. These "pin" worms are not visible to the naked eye. I'll be starting her deworming treatment as soon as the medication arrives.

It's great that you caught this. When my sulcata was less than a year old he had a pin worm infestation. As soon as it was cleared up he begin to add weight. He was treated with panacur. I was able to get him to ingest it by putting it on Mazuri pellets.

 

[Morlas Mama]

I'm lucky enough to work in a place that also has a vet lab and a vet on staff. Thank you @Dizisdalife for the tip on what worked for you to get the tort to take the meds. I have been scanning the forums looking for this type of information today. Thank you!

 

[Dizisdalife]

I'm lucky enough to work in a place that also has a vet lab and a vet on staff. Thank you @Dizisdalife for the tip on what worked for you to get the tort to take the meds. I have been scanning the forums looking for this type of information today. Thank you!

Glad I could help. You are lucky to have a vet lab. You are going to want a fecal after the treatment and another one about 6 months later. If all goes well, then once a year after that. Which reminds me that my sulcata is overdue for a fecal exam.

 

[Morlas Mama]

It's very difficult to take a clear photo from a microscope. You can see plant fecal matter is a darker shade and haphazardly shaped. The parasites are rounded with a nucleus. These pics are purely for the curious minds and shouldn't be used to diagnosis your own torts. Wish they could be clearer for everyone.