STRANGE SYMPTOMS

Russianuncletwo

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Current situation: Luna, whether picking up on my own or not, became very stressed the week before last-mainly from excessive activity/noise. I don’t know where to begin and thus is going to sound clumsy because I’m worried and there are too many issues. (Keep in mind though, there is no eye discharge, no runny poop, tounge a perfect pink and she’s eating up a storm.) Besides a few symptoms listed in paragraph below, this is what is happening with my Luna. a week ago I, had a wide eyed, strong, healthy tortoise. I was already dealing with her getting “spooked” too much lately whereas if she heard the wrong noises or a starnger came too close, she would be afraid to keep eating what she was eating or afraid to stay under the basking lamp or afraide to come out of her main “hide”, peeking out, waiting for predators. (I found the safest thing was to sit next to her, feed her and not walk into the other room and come back. Just sit calmly, cross my legs occasionally and watch her eat and drop more in front of her as he was done with the last. She gets too easily sidetracked with noise or what she thinks may be a threat. I can sidetrack her back to fun things like eating when this happens. Sometimes I use a trick to remove her from he main enclosure until she looks ike she tries to get back to it, I help her into it, put food down and she’s calm and eats.) The next occurance was suddenly (possibly from excessive burrowing), the originally dusty substrate that I thought settled after a few days weeks ago went super dusty and Luna even became the color of the substrate-it was even getting in her water dish and all of a sudden. As I order practcally overnight replacement substrate, she starts acting weird at times. The first was the wiping ofher right side of her head-I thought this was from some dry skin sticking out. (I also got a sprayer to “shower” her after her next soak before putting the new substrate in but the last couple days she is just not looking well, but not constantly. She will stand and stare when she hears a noise and is quite wide eyed. At one point though, she was opening her mouth twice though she wasn’t eating at tthe time. Her eyes were half open and one point even eating with her eyes closed, walking a few seconds with her eyes closed. My first thought was she was tired from being up all night when she was afraid to come out and excessive noises were in the house the night before. (She can act sleepy when she’s half asleep.) In the event she was getting too much uvb, maybe staring at it too much also as it’s the directon out from were she can excessively peer out from her hide, tonight I decided to take out temorarily the Powersun M.V. bulb and switched it for a shorter 100w incandescent, coupled by the 40w alternate bulb near to it (making the area just a couple of degrees warmer). Her eye occasionally (her right I’ve noticed) has this twitch and she keeps the eye closed. Moving along to symptoms-she’s sitting weirdly at times, today actually stuck her face doen into her substrate in between walking for 4 seconds as if to wipe her nose or comfort herself, she’s stretching and curving her neck differently than normally for no apparent reason at all but in between she’s acting like normal and eating like a pig, pooping normal stools. I bet if I picked her up and put her on the floor she’d be acting like normal, looking or a place to burrow. Is she getting a nervous twitch? Is she sick? I’m worried to death. Too many weird things and too many unusual circumstances. I’d love to take her to the vet but with the temeratures out, my car’s current passenger heat issue (it’s been low as -4 this week around here) and the fact she gets traumatized lately going from one part of the house to the other, let alone a 20 minute ride to the tort vet. My last comment here list Recent “environmental” and other circumstances: Luna having moved a component of a barrier I didn’t realise she was strong enough to, Luna recently tumbled approx 12”(?) and although slid through a narrow, somewhat curved area and landed on a very thick, cushioned surface, it’s not imposible she got a bruise in the process although I have seen no particular changes in agility or discomfort, etc. the days immedtely afterwards. 4 days ago, started a period of such severe outdoor record breaking cold weather overnight that the 1st floor multi-zone heating (where Luna is) though set at anywhere between 67 and 71, would not go higher once it got down to 61 degrees which it got to by 5:45m. When I got up 7 hours later, room temperature was fine but Luna’s never slept indoors in anything that low-anywhere. After 2 nights of Luna sleeping in temps 61-64 due to cold weather, I noticed just for a second something come out of her left nostril while she was eating-oherwise no nasal discharge. Anyway, in between looking like normal, she acts like she’s high and she acts like she’s suffering, i-n-t-e-r-m-i-t-t-a-n-t-l-y.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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Well your my age so you will remember that saying a picture is worth a thousand words . Can you post a picture and in it I would like to be able to see the tort , where in the room the tort is , and I would like to know the temps in the enclosure .and really don't put the tort on the floor its too cold and there are more dangers on the floor .
 

Jodie

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Is this a new enclosure for your tortoise? Pictures would be very helpful. How old is your tortoise? Several things you describe indicate an RI. Figuring out how to get the temps up will be necessary to help him get better if that's the case. What kind of bulb are you using for UVB? What kind of substrate are you using? Typically it is recommended that you keep the substrate moist, but I don't really want to recommend raising humidity until you can get the temps up.
 

Yvonne G

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It's usually just a matter of conditioning. Leave her alone to be a tortoise, and let her get used to the activity around her.
 

dmmj

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It may be like yvonne said, simply let the tortoise be a tortoise. They can train us well, real quick. Would you indulge me and post a pic of the enclosure?
 

Russianuncletwo

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Well your my age so you will remember that saying a picture is worth a thousand words . Can you post a picture and in it I would like to be able to see the tort , where in the room the tort is , and I would like to know the temps in the enclosure .and really don't put the tort on the floor its too cold and there are more dangers on the floor .
I use a different term (being in marketing) but same meaning; "Visuals are best!" Am posting photo below on this thread because it looks like there were other requests for the photo.
 

Russianuncletwo

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Before the weather got too cold, Luna, under hawklike supervision, got the run of a large treed yard. Despite the fact Luna was supposed to have her own full room and the run of it shortly after I inherited her in October (I was involved with her care though since Aug 9, 2011), walking her up stairs (being juggled and with the vibrations of my feet clumping on them) seemed to cause mild trauma in her so the room the "primary" enclosure is in here is devoted to her care-she just gets her winter exploring on large surface areas and not on the floor as the first floor is not tortoise proof and way too much tracked ice melt at the moment. She kinda half-estivated from Mid Oct. to early Jan. and it's been a slow experimental process now that she's (and she may be a "he" afterall) solely with me.. From site, this set up does not look ideal but it is temporary and she does get out. The substrate (ReptiBark which she was used to and is easy to get) is normally 6" high, thus she can burrow and still be high enough to receive airflow in a glass enclosure. The bulb went from incandescent to National Geographic Solar Heat MV in Dec. to Zoomed PowerSun 100w, about 17" from substrate (it's normally in the dome you see here-the other lamp is an alternate that is normally not on w/a 40w incandescent. There are reasons for the unorthodox choice of this set up and her personality. My concern was she would peer out of that shell hide and stare too much at the bulb which I started putting on when I got up so I could regulate her and it. Now it's on a timer that goes on while I'm still asleep. long story why I changed formats. I'm wondering if she is not getting enough rest as I'm home way too much at the moment and the noises (vibrations) of an older multi level home and my hours which conflict with "normal" are to be a concern. I'm down to either too much UVB or the dust causing the eye issues (unless she got injured or brain damaged in her tumble but the latter would have shown up after it happened and not just the past few days.)
Sure enough, she acted like normal today.Then as her routine was interrupted, I (and I don't like doing this) took her out of her hide when she was sleeping and she did her weird thing with the eyes and everything but ate like a pig until she suddenly got a tad spooked and decided it was time to go hide or burrow. After "spooked", her eyes were suddenly wide open and she acted like normal-like she was sleep walking until then. Attached here is photo of setup. She was behind the lamp in this one but the enclosure came out better of the three I took.
 

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ascott

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Before the weather got too cold, Luna, under hawklike supervision, got the run of a large treed yard. Despite the fact Luna was supposed to have her own full room and the run of it shortly after I inherited her in October (I was involved with her care though since Aug 9, 2011), walking her up stairs (being juggled and with the vibrations of my feet clumping on them) seemed to cause mild trauma in her so the room the "primary" enclosure is in here is devoted to her care-she just gets her winter exploring on large surface areas and not on the floor as the first floor is not tortoise proof and way too much tracked ice melt at the moment. She kinda half-estivated from Mid Oct. to early Jan. and it's been a slow experimental process now that she's (and she may be a "he" afterall) solely with me.. From site, this set up does not look ideal but it is temporary and she does get out. The substrate (ReptiBark which she was used to and is easy to get) is normally 6" high, thus she can burrow and still be high enough to receive airflow in a glass enclosure. The bulb went from incandescent to National Geographic Solar Heat MV in Dec. to Zoomed PowerSun 100w, about 17" from substrate (it's normally in the dome you see here-the other lamp is an alternate that is normally not on w/a 40w incandescent. There are reasons for the unorthodox choice of this set up and her personality. My concern was she would peer out of that shell hide and stare too much at the bulb which I started putting on when I got up so I could regulate her and it. Now it's on a timer that goes on while I'm still asleep. long story why I changed formats. I'm wondering if she is not getting enough rest as I'm home way too much at the moment and the noises (vibrations) of an older multi level home and my hours which conflict with "normal" are to be a concern. I'm down to either too much UVB or the dust causing the eye issues (unless she got injured or brain damaged in her tumble but the latter would have shown up after it happened and not just the past few days.)
Sure enough, she acted like normal today.Then as her routine was interrupted, I (and I don't like doing this) took her out of her hide when she was sleeping and she did her weird thing with the eyes and everything but ate like a pig until she suddenly got a tad spooked and decided it was time to go hide or burrow. After "spooked", her eyes were suddenly wide open and she acted like normal-like she was sleep walking until then. Attached here is photo of setup. She was behind the lamp in this one but the enclosure came out better of the three I took.

Wow...I am exhausted and it sounds as though you should be as well....and I say that NOT at all being mean....no intention of that whatsoever....here is what I would do if it were me...first of all--take a deep breath and relax :p ...

I would change some of that hard lumpy bark stuff for some more earth type substrate...coco coir or a peat moss...and mix it like 60 % earth substrate and that lumpy stuff towards the bottom (keep in mind that this species of tortoise can burrow itself down several (yes, several) feet and still breath...
I also would add a top (foil or some other type of top) that would cover near 3/4 of the top to allow for temp to balance out....I also would add a couple plant (silk plants, not real) canopies to allow the tort to move about from area to area and still feel safe.... I would also offer food and then WALK AWAY AND LEAVE THE AREA to allow the tort some private time---this is a common issue with a variety of tortoise--very common....don't gawk... and let the tort be for a majority of the day...keep the lighting on / off right on schedule--tortoise are creatures of and thrive on habit and strict routine....and for goodness sake....stop fussing so much over the tort to the point you make yourself and the tort crazy....:D;)
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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Thankyou for the pict she needs to move from that window to keep any cold away from her torts don't like any cold ( and 70 degrees is cold to a tort ).
She needs a lot bigger water dish like a flower pot base and maybe another base for food to help keep substriaght out of her food . And a hide a place were she can go to leave everything behind and just think .
 

mini_max

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Tortoises sure do provoke a lot of worry don't they!?

I think a few enclosure changes as suggested may help...some plants, things to climb, etc. But I would keep an eye on the mouth opening and neck stretching, head swiping and even excessive skittishness. I have observed all of those things in my tortoise prior to coming down with something, before other symptoms. Don't worry though, if your tort gets sick, there is plenty you can do to help it get better. The last thing I want to do is induce panic!

It you suspect illness, it never hurts to ramp up the soaking and warm that enclosure up a bit...especially at night. Personally I think with low 60 s like that I think you are playing Russian roulette with an RI, especially if you maintain any moisture in your substrate. I'd get it up to more like mid 70s for night, and same for day to see if that improves things. This is all just coming from personal experience. In my history, heat really helps with getting impending illness before it takes hold. Mind you my russian is a baby so maybe more affected by temps.
 

mini_max

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Also, that glass may contribute to skittishness. Some visual barriers like plants and variation in elevation may help, though she needs more space all around. She doesn't really have much to explore or exercise on. I find that my tortoise is pretty, to emote something human onto a tortoise - unhappy - unless I change up his enclosure regularly...move the plants, add things to climb over, etc.
 

Russianuncletwo

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Thank you all-I am replying to each individual above (a feature of this site.) Today, by the way, seeing her "normal" again when I got up, I gave her and me a couple hours and then I did it all (only the "shower" finally unnerved her a bit but didn't stop her from nibbling just minutes later. I scooped and bagged the tons of dusty substrate, sanitized the enclosure w/safe stuff and paper towels, let dry, replaced the new "good" substrate, and while this was going on, babysat her in between, w/occasional food dops and allowed her to walk into a Zoomed "pool" herself and walk out which had her less afraid of water for the first time and she was even calmer in her large soak bin later (it was being walked to the kitchen at the end of the two hour process to get her gentle "shower" that put her a bit over the edge but all that rust color dust is off her and I gently allowed her head/neck to be under the spray 3 quick times). She pooped, urinated, dropped a minor urate, was wide/clear eyed the whole time walking around and looked acted healthy as an Olympic athlete. (Have I been nurturing her the right way the last 72 hours??) I don't know if I am going to see the flip side later or she is over what she was. I'm reasonably relaxed now but part of me is on pins and needles. She looks so much better and now no dust. Absolutely no breathing issue, either and saw zero discharge and this was over hours. She's pretty relaxed when I'm around-it's when I'm making noise in the other room(s) that freak her out more. Now for individual replies t individual comments above.
 

Russianuncletwo

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Tortoises sure do provoke a lot of worry don't they!?

I think a few enclosure changes as suggested may help...some plants, things to climb, etc. But I would keep an eye on the mouth opening and neck stretching, head swiping and even excessive skittishness. I have observed all of those things in my tortoise prior to coming down with something, before other symptoms. Don't worry though, if your tort gets sick, there is plenty you can do to help it get better. The last thing I want to do is induce panic!

It you suspect illness, it never hurts to ramp up the soaking and warm that enclosure up a bit...especially at night. Personally I think with low 60 s like that I think you are playing Russian roulette with an RI, especially if you maintain any moisture in your substrate. I'd get it up to more like mid 70s for night, and same for day to see if that improves things. This is all just coming from personal experience. In my history, heat really helps with getting impending illness before it takes hold. Mind you my russian is a baby so maybe more affected by temps.
Thank you. What did your tort come down with after showing similar symptoms? W/the enclosure, it's still in experimental stage and I didn't want to change anything two drastically. She came to me in her old enclosure and this is similar format but deeper substrate. I had it covered on side, but not this new one. I would love to put a ramp connecting her to the large table next to the enclosure where she could walk there on her own. On the low '60s-I agree. The heat on my first floor just would not go higher that night with the 0 and below outside. There is baseboard heating by the way below those windows. I should really take her upstairs-I heat the place so it becomes 78 in my bedroom by 3am. This house is unique in it's multi-zone as well-if you set upstairs to 73, downstairs can't go above 70 and 67 is best. Luna's latest is I set "day & eve" temps to 71 which compliments the enclosure heating, making the bask and cool side "work". Then I slowly put it down thru the night and around 2am I set room temp to 67/68 while she's asleep.
 

A Carson

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I'm so sorry your going through this with your tortoise:( i read everything you posted and many gut feeling tells me it's the start of a respiratory infection. I'm currently fighting a RI with my Russian and a lot of what your describing sounds exactly like how many little guy started out. My best advice would be what my vet told me , keep the heat on at night and do not let tempts get any lower than 75. I would get a ceramic heat emitter for night time heat. Cranked up heat is important if this is what's going on. Also just letting your tort be with less interaction so it's not so stressed. I know it's hard with weather but if there are any signs of RI i would not wait for a vet, the longer you do the harder it will be to fight it. I hope it's not the start of RI but it's Sounds like it all speaking from experience
 

Russianuncletwo

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Also, that glass may contribute to skittishness. Some visual barriers like plants and variation in elevation may help, though she needs more space all around. She doesn't really have much to explore or exercise on. I find that my tortoise is pretty, to emote something human onto a tortoise - unhappy - unless I change up his enclosure regularly...move the plants, add things to climb over, etc.
Thank you. I had visual barriers in her last enclosure but as seeing me/"who's making noise" make her more relaxed, I did not put any up. I may have to, at least on maybe two or three of the fours sides. Other ideas I have posted to some of the replies here. Varied elevation I had going for a while and the goal was to get her out as much as possible but as she seems comfortable in where she's used to, yes I need to modify.
 

Russianuncletwo

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I'm so sorry your going through this with your tortoise:( i read everything you posted and many gut feeling tells me it's the start of a respiratory infection. I'm currently fighting a RI with my Russian and a lot of what your describing sounds exactly like how many little guy started out. My best advice would be what my vet told me , keep the heat on at night and do not let tempts get any lower than 75. I would get a ceramic heat emitter for night time heat. Cranked up heat is important if this is what's going on. Also just letting your tort be with less interaction so it's not so stressed. I know it's hard with weather but if there are any signs of RI i would not wait for a vet, the longer you do the harder it will be to fight it. I hope it's not the start of RI but it's Sounds like it all speaking from experience
The nighttime heater-possibly using the heat rock we bought for emergency once if I cant control room temp or get a no-light heat bulb. Thank you.
 

A Carson

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I'm not sure i would use the heat rock. I heard that they get too hot and can burn them:( if at all possible i would move your tortoise away from the window and into a warmer room. The cold temps mixed with humid substrate depending on what your using is a bad combo.also dusty substrates can mimic respiratory like illnesses. I would say number one concern is to not let the temps drop any lower than 75.
 

Russianuncletwo

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Thankyou for the pict she needs to move from that window to keep any cold away from her torts don't like any cold ( and 70 degrees is cold to a tort ).
She needs a lot bigger water dish like a flower pot base and maybe another base for food to help keep substriaght out of her food . And a hide a place were she can go to leave everything behind and just think .
She seemed to thrive at 73/75 at night before the heat needed to come on but all the books kept saying mid or upper 60s. She also seemed to want to bask when keeping temps at 67 and the basking motivated her to come out more and get uvb which in turn encouraged her to eat again earlier in winter. It;'s like I had to "freeze her out" at night (66/67) to get her to live a normal life. As I wrote below, there are baseboard heating units under the windows so it's extra heat/fresh ir (??).
 

Russianuncletwo

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I'm not sure i would use the heat rock. I heard that they get too hot and can burn them:( if at all possible i would move your tortoise away from the window and into a warmer room. The cold temps mixed with humid substrate depending on what your using is a bad combo.also dusty substrates can mimic respiratory like illnesses. I would say number one concern is to not let the temps drop any lower than 75.
There is such a discrepancy of theories on damp and dry substrate for Russians. I lean toward dry but most don't and I'm experimenting now.
 

A Carson

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There is such a discrepancy of theories on damp and dry substrate for Russians. I lean toward dry but most don't and I'm experimenting now.

Moist damp substrate is fine as long as it doesn't get cold. But moist + cold = problems:(
 

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