"Starve Days"? What?

[Tom]

I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:

There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.

Alternatively, soil based products are available and are arguably more natural, however, they are high maintenance and take some time to find the correct amount of misting, so it is not too damp and never dusty.

... I think that they believe tortoises should not have much (if any) moisture at all in their enclosure?

That was the typical advice back when I learned all about tortoises in the late 80s and early 90s. Compressed grass bedding... Supposed to be the next best thing since we were all using rabbit pellets at the time. Alfalfa (what rabbit pellets are made from) was supposedly much too high in protein if they ate it. The grass bedding was supposed to be MUCH better because of that. Both of them broke down and got very dusty. Both of them contributed to dehydration.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:

There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.

Alternatively, soil based products are available and are arguably more natural, however, they are high maintenance and take some time to find the correct amount of misting, so it is not too damp and never dusty.

... I think that they believe tortoises should not have much (if any) moisture at all in their enclosure?

Yea.
You need to leave the pages of that publication in the outhouse so that it can be used for something good.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

That was the typical advice back when I learned all about tortoises in the late 80s and early 90s. Compressed grass bedding... Supposed to be the next best thing since we were all using rabbit pellets at the time. Alfalfa (what rabbit pellets are made from) was supposedly much too high in protein if they ate it. The grass bedding was supposed to be MUCH better because of that. Both of them broke down and got very dusty. Both of them contributed to dehydration.

Me too.
Remember when tortoises got all of the water they needed from the foods that they ate?
The hobby has come along way.
God bless the internet.

 

[janevicki]

LOL I laughed when I read this post! My torts and turts don't know what "Starve Days" are. And I am glad about that. I appreciate the knowledge that we have here in this forum. You older members really helped me out big time on what to do with my new ones.

I love seeing all the members with their beautiful, healthy turtles and tortoises.

Am I right in saying : "If given the proper food, I have not run into any pyramding or other deformities due to diet."?

 

[Tom]

Am I right in saying : "If given the proper food, I have not run into any pyramding or other deformities due to diet."?

That would be correct. I'd go further and say even without the proper food, the diet won't cause pyramiding. I once saw pictures of two 50-60 pound 5 year old sulcatas that regularly ate a bowl of cat kibble, but were bowling ball smooth. They lived outdoors in South Florida in a burrow.

 

[mark1]

There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..

From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe



Vegetation growing in a lot of the areas tortoises live in is growing in nutrient depleted soils and are lacking in nutrition …….



Tortoises don’t naturally spend their days grazing , they spend their days hiding ……



Wild tortoises eat less quantities of less nutritious food and work harder for it …….



Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………



One question was do tortoises “self starve” in the summer ? I’d say yes , Tortoise do self starve in the summer , it’s called aestivation ……..



A stunted captive 10yr old 30lb sulcata , I seen a study on the growth rate of captive vs free range sulcatas , the average size for 10yr old free ranging sulcata was around 5kg ……..



There are a few folks that have studied the time allotment during the active season of wild tortoises , feeding was a very small portion of their day , in any I can remember ……..



Just an opinion , I would think an animal that has evolved to have a digestive system capable of extracting the maximum nutrition from low nutrition foods , just might have issues with an unending supply of highly nutritious food ?



An observation , at no point in the year do my turtles look more vibrant /healthier than in the spring after a week out of hibernation …….





Over fed water turtles that you force growth on do end up with lumpier than normal shells ……….

 

[method89]

There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..

From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe



Vegetation growing in a lot of the areas tortoises live in is growing in nutrient depleted soils and are lacking in nutrition …….



Tortoises don’t naturally spend their days grazing , they spend their days hiding ……



Wild tortoises eat less quantities of less nutritious food and work harder for it …….



Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………



One question was do tortoises “self starve” in the summer ? I’d say yes , Tortoise do self starve in the summer , it’s called aestivation ……..



A stunted captive 10yr old 30lb sulcata , I seen a study on the growth rate of captive vs free range sulcatas , the average size for 10yr old free ranging sulcata was around 5kg ……..



There are a few folks that have studied the time allotment during the active season of wild tortoises , feeding was a very small portion of their day , in any I can remember ……..



Just an opinion , I would think an animal that has evolved to have a digestive system capable of extracting the maximum nutrition from low nutrition foods , just might have issues with an unending supply of highly nutritious food ?



An observation , at no point in the year do my turtles look more vibrant /healthier than in the spring after a week out of hibernation …….





Over fed water turtles that you force growth on do end up with lumpier than normal shells ……….

"Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………"

Do you have any studies that you can reference to this? Not looking to disagree as I have no facts to dispute it. I would just be interested in learning more.

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

"Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………"

Do you have any studies that you can reference to this? Not looking to disagree as I have no facts to dispute it. I would just be interested in learning more.

Totally believable... during the winter, if I'm not sleeping, I'm drinking more alcoholic beverages than on average due to all the holiday parties and DEFINITELY over eating! My poor liver.

 

[method89]

"I agree with the ninja tortoise man"

 

[Yvonne G]

There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..

From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe



Vegetation growing in a lot of the areas tortoises live in is growing in nutrient depleted soils and are lacking in nutrition …….



Tortoises don’t naturally spend their days grazing , they spend their days hiding ……



Wild tortoises eat less quantities of less nutritious food and work harder for it …….



Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………



One question was do tortoises “self starve” in the summer ? I’d say yes , Tortoise do self starve in the summer , it’s called aestivation ……..



A stunted captive 10yr old 30lb sulcata , I seen a study on the growth rate of captive vs free range sulcatas , the average size for 10yr old free ranging sulcata was around 5kg ……..



There are a few folks that have studied the time allotment during the active season of wild tortoises , feeding was a very small portion of their day , in any I can remember ……..



Just an opinion , I would think an animal that has evolved to have a digestive system capable of extracting the maximum nutrition from low nutrition foods , just might have issues with an unending supply of highly nutritious food ?



An observation , at no point in the year do my turtles look more vibrant /healthier than in the spring after a week out of hibernation …….





Over fed water turtles that you force growth on do end up with lumpier than normal shells ……….

All of these points are something to think about. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[mark1]

you can use google scholar and search hepatic lipidosis in reptiles and probably find what your looking for .....

here's a pdf on what it is . i understand it is a common diagnosis , and my feeling is a very minute amount of dead reptiles are diagnosed ...... if it's common in the few that are diagnosed , i don't see much reason to not think it's common overall ...

http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/138._HEPATIC_LIPIDOSIS_IN_REPTILES238.pdf

 

[KarenSoCal]

I keep tropical fish. Nothing fancy, just a nice 20L community tank.

It's very easy to overfeed fish. Dump in some flakes each morning. It's so cute when they all come front and look at you...dump a little in each evening.

But fish can easily get stopped up and develop bloat, swell up and pinecone, and die a miserable death.

Many aquarists, to prevent this, feed for 5 days. The 6th day they give no food. The 7th day the fish are given a bit of shelled pea, which acts as a mild laxative. Then normal feeding is resumed.

I realize tortoises are not fish. But I think skipping a day of food now and then has merit.

It's not uncommon for keepers to come to the forum with concern that their tortoises are straining. A day of not adding to that burden can help everything move and clear out.

I've fasted myself. It's refreshing, puts a bounce in my step, and eliminates that "walking in molasses" feel.

If it's beneficial for fish and me, why not for tortoises?

Having said all that, I did not routinely skip days of feeding my tortoise. But there were days I gave him a smaller serving.

 

[janevicki]

you can use google scholar and search hepatic lipidosis in reptiles and probably find what your looking for .....

here's a pdf on what it is . i understand it is a common diagnosis , and my feeling is a very minute amount of dead reptiles are diagnosed ...... if it's common in the few that are diagnosed , i don't see much reason to not think it's common overall ...

http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/138._HEPATIC_LIPIDOSIS_IN_REPTILES238.pdf

Thanks for the info on this pdf. I see that overfeeding, stressful environment and chronic stress have been shown to mess up these reptiles. What i see is similar in the human world too. That is why it is important to have our animals in a stress free environment and have them live as natural as possible.

 

[Oxychan]

I was looking around, and found this link...

Tortoise Facts

Learn all you need to know about Tortoises

www.thetortoiseshop.com

It says "As a general rule, you should offer an amount of food equivalent to the size of your tortoise's shell. They should be fed once a day, 5 days a week. The 2 starve days can be implemented at any time, in any order. This allows the slow-working digestive system to catch up, removing the tortoise's need for a self starvation period in the summer."
Is this practiced by anyone? Or is it cruel? It seems strange.

I extremely glad I found this forum.
I didn't know any better when doing research on a tortoise's diet and I thought that it was beneficial since it would kind of make sense that a tortoise's digestive system is much slower than ours; a very huge mistake and admittedly a very stupid one on my end. And yes, I did get that (most likely false) information on that site you listed.
I did practice it for quite a while, but after reading most of the comments today, I will now adamantly stand somewhat against this. I'm unsure if it's necessarily "cruel" but I wouldn't really do it anymore. If you feel like you gave it 'too much' then I'd probably give it a smaller portion on some specific days.
I've had Simon (my tortoise <3) ever since I was eight years old (I am now fifteen years of age.) And I feel extremely guilty for it.