Sorting through the conflicting advice.

[Rue]

Newcomers to tortoises (that includes me) seem to be baffled by all the conflicting and confusing advice out there. I thought a thread to try to sort through it might be helpful (or at least interesting). I've compiled my own list of twelve bits of rather conflicting information and advice, but will restrain myself and start with one. Please feel free to bring up your own confusion...

1. Nutrition of weeds compared to store-bought produce.

Conflicting advice a) Do not feed store-bought produce. It is high in nutrition (and sugars) because it is harvested from well-fertilized plots. It is too rich. Your tortoise will grow too fast. In the wild tortoises feed on nutrient poor plants.

Conflicting advice b) Do not feed store-bought produce. It is nutritionally poor. Feed your tortoise weeds since they are high in nutrients and will provide your tortoise with the best diet.

So, we're agreed on feeding weeds and minimizing the store bought produce. All good.

But then which is it? Is the produce nutrient rich...and the weeds poor? Or vice versa.

I'm voting for Conflicting advice a!

 

[JoesMum]

As far as I am concerned the store produce falls very simplistically into the following categories

High in water, low in fiber - eg lettuce, cucumber, zucchini (or courgette as we call it here)

Sugary - eg fruit, tomato, carrot, bell pepper - not suitable for some species, eg Testudo, Sulcata and Leopard, as the sugars cause health problems with digestive tract and kidneys

The rest that may or may not be suitable as part of a varied diet due to amount of oxalate, goitrogens or whatever in them. See The Tortoise Table for information.

Weeds are the natural diet for tortoises in the wild, they're also free. Even species that "don't eat grasses" actually ingest grasses as they graze the weeds and add fiber. (Joe's poop shows this as he grazes our lawn for weeds)

In the wild, the large distances roamed and the change of the seasons mean that torts will get the variety they need to be healthy. In captivity we are trying to ensure the health of our torts by providing that variety too.

However, newbies are frequently terrified of feeding the wrong stuff and would rather just buy stuff they know and recognise.

I think what most people on here are trying to discourage is the lazy buying of a bag of spring mix as the staple diet and maybe feeding some kale for variety.

 

[Yvonne G]

You're never going to find a "how to" list on caring for turtles and tortoises. Too much depends upon where you live and where they come from. We each give our best info, but it is colored by our preferences. There is more than one way to skin a cat. What I do to provide a humid environment here in Central California may be drastically different from what Joe's mum has to do in the UK.

You have to research what your species of tortoise requires to live a happy and healthy life, take in all the info you read, then choose which direction takes you in giving your tortoise what it needs.

I use store bought produce, but I also use whatever edible plants, weeds and grasses I find outside.

 

[Speedy-1]

I sort of watch who is making a statement , and use my own good sense from there . Some people are very knowledgeable . Some people like to drone on , arguing semantics over any silliness just to try and convince you they are right , or at least stubborn enough to get the last word in !

 

[KatyshaB]

My conflicting problem is whether or not young tortoises need A LOT of hydration or not.

A. (This information was what I got from Tom, who clearly knows what he is doing) "Young tortoises, NEED hydration, it helps with shell growth, and when the female digs it's nest in the wild. The nest is humid. Your hatchling WILL die without LOTS of humidity, and they NEED to have a humid hide, humid substrate, and be soaked daily, a water dish, and they just need to be humid in general." I got this information from his post on 'Newbie's getting Tortoises and their dying' It was something around that name.

B. (This information came from Yvonne G's sister, I forgot her name. But she also seems to know what she is doing.) "I have raised and hatched many tortoises over the years, I do believe in them having to be soaked. But when I hatch my tortoises, I soak them daily, but I give them a rabbit pelt (She said that I don't know what she met by 'Rabbit Pelt's) diet. And give them some humidity, and that's it. I do not believe in having them being soaking wet like Tom, we have hatched hundreds of hatchlings this way and only on clutch died. So, they do need humidity, but not Soaking wet. I got this information from her comment on Tom's post. (The one I used for A).

So, my problem is I am HOPING to someday get baby Torts, but I don't know which one to choose, these people clearly have TONS of experience with tortoises, but I don't know which one to follow.

If any of you are reading this, and there is a good chance you are. There is a possibility I misread or messed up on what you said. If that is the case, please tell me so I can fix my mistake. Thanks.

 

[jaizei]

My conflicting problem is whether or not young tortoises need A LOT of hydration or not.

A. (This information was what I got from Tom, who clearly knows what he is doing) "Young tortoises, NEED hydration, it helps with shell growth, and when the female digs it's nest in the wild. The nest is humid. Your hatchling WILL die without LOTS of humidity, and they NEED to have a humid hide, humid substrate, and be soaked daily, a water dish, and they just need to be humid in general." I got this information from his post on 'Newbie's getting Tortoises and their dying' It was something around that name.

B. (This information came from Yvonne G's sister, I forgot her name. But she also seems to know what she is doing.) "I have raised and hatched many tortoises over the years, I do believe in them having to be soaked. But when I hatch my tortoises, I soak them daily, but I give them a rabbit pelt (She said that I don't know what she met by 'Rabbit Pelt's) diet. And give them some humidity, and that's it. I do not believe in having them being soaking wet like Tom, we have hatched hundreds of hatchlings this way and only on clutch died. So, they do need humidity, but not Soaking wet. I got this information from her comment on Tom's post. (The one I used for A).

So, my problem is I am HOPING to someday get baby Torts, but I don't know which one to choose, these people clearly have TONS of experience with tortoises, but I don't know which one to follow.

If any of you are reading this, and there is a good chance you are. There is a possibility I misread or messed up on what you said. If that is the case, please tell me so I can fix my mistake. Thanks.

The thread you're referencing was from awhile back; In the post, Maggie said 80% humidity & daily soakings which is basically the same as Tom says in his care sheet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

 

[KatyshaB]

The thread you're referencing was from awhile back; In the post, Maggie said 80% humidity & daily soakings which is basically the same as Tom says in his care sheet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

Ah, That's makes it easier. Alrighty

 

[Tom]

As far as I am concerned the store produce falls very simplistically into the following categories

High in water, low in fiber - eg lettuce, cucumber, zucchini (or courgette as we call it here)

Sugary - eg fruit, tomato, carrot, bell pepper - not suitable for some species, eg Testudo, Sulcata and Leopard, as the sugars cause health problems with digestive tract and kidneys

The rest that may or may not be suitable as part of a varied diet due to amount of oxalate, goitrogens or whatever in them. See The Tortoise Table for information.

You've spelled out my issues with grocery store produce perfectly here. The only thing that I would add is that some of the grocery store produce also has a low calcium to phosphorus ratio.

 

[Tom]

My conflicting problem is whether or not young tortoises need A LOT of hydration or not.

A. (This information was what I got from Tom, who clearly knows what he is doing) "Young tortoises, NEED hydration, it helps with shell growth, and when the female digs it's nest in the wild. The nest is humid. Your hatchling WILL die without LOTS of humidity, and they NEED to have a humid hide, humid substrate, and be soaked daily, a water dish, and they just need to be humid in general." I got this information from his post on 'Newbie's getting Tortoises and their dying' It was something around that name.

B. (This information came from Yvonne G's sister, I forgot her name. But she also seems to know what she is doing.) "I have raised and hatched many tortoises over the years, I do believe in them having to be soaked. But when I hatch my tortoises, I soak them daily, but I give them a rabbit pelt (She said that I don't know what she met by 'Rabbit Pelt's) diet. And give them some humidity, and that's it. I do not believe in having them being soaking wet like Tom, we have hatched hundreds of hatchlings this way and only on clutch died. So, they do need humidity, but not Soaking wet. I got this information from her comment on Tom's post. (The one I used for A).

So, my problem is I am HOPING to someday get baby Torts, but I don't know which one to choose, these people clearly have TONS of experience with tortoises, but I don't know which one to follow.

If any of you are reading this, and there is a good chance you are. There is a possibility I misread or messed up on what you said. If that is the case, please tell me so I can fix my mistake. Thanks.

In addition to what Jaizei pointed out, I remember a point in time when I was arguing with some of the established experts here about the hydration/humidity thing and some of them were using the old, incorrect, disproven: "They'll get shell rot and respiratory infections…" argument with me. I pointed out that my Daisy was practically housed in a swamp and she showed no signs of either. I remember making the statement that a red eared slider could live in her enclosure and be fine, it was so wet. Maggie took that to mean that I was recommending such wetness all the time. I wasn't recommending that at all. I was just illustrating that even when taken to the extreme, as I did with Daisy in a successful effort to stop long term pyramiding, these "sky is falling…" predictions were not coming true. Her and I discussed it, and we concluded that we were pretty much on the same page with regards to "optimal" warmth, humidity and hydration.

 

[Tom]

Newcomers to tortoises (that includes me) seem to be baffled by all the conflicting and confusing advice out there. I thought a thread to try to sort through it might be helpful (or at least interesting). I've compiled my own list of twelve bits of rather conflicting information and advice, but will restrain myself and start with one. Please feel free to bring up your own confusion...

1. Nutrition of weeds compared to store-bought produce.

Conflicting advice a) Do not feed store-bought produce. It is high in nutrition (and sugars) because it is harvested from well-fertilized plots. It is too rich. Your tortoise will grow too fast. In the wild tortoises feed on nutrient poor plants.

Conflicting advice b) Do not feed store-bought produce. It is nutritionally poor. Feed your tortoise weeds since they are high in nutrients and will provide your tortoise with the best diet.

So, we're agreed on feeding weeds and minimizing the store bought produce. All good.

But then which is it? Is the produce nutrient rich...and the weeds poor? Or vice versa.

I'm voting for Conflicting advice a!

We are ready for conflicting advice topic number 2.

 

[Rue]

Sure! Why not?

Example 2: Use of supplements such as calcium (with D3).

Advice a: No need to use a supplement. A varied diet will take care of calcium needs.

Advice b. Use supplements daily. That’s what they are for. You can’t overdose using a daily supplement.

Advice c. Sprinkle calcium powder (with D3) on food twice a week. You can easily overdose if you use it more often and cause health issues.

Advice d. Have a cuttlefish bone (it comes from the cuttlefish – which is a mollusc) in the enclosure. If the tortoise feels it needs more calcium it can eat as much as it needs.

Advice e. Supplement with calcium powder twice a week. Have a cuttlefish bone available at all times.

 

[Speedy-1]

As Yvonne G said earlier "You're never going to find a "how to" list on caring for turtles and tortoises." . You know Torts need calcium , and as you have pointed out there are several ways to go about making sure they get ! There is no "one way that is best"! I think a responsible tort owner needs to decide on a course of action and be observant and ready to adjust if it doesn't seem to be working ! But that's just my opinion .

 

[Tom]

Sure! Why not?

Example 2: Use of supplements such as calcium (with D3).

Advice a: No need to use a supplement. A varied diet will take care of calcium needs.

Advice b. Use supplements daily. That’s what they are for. You can’t overdose using a daily supplement.

Advice c. Sprinkle calcium powder (with D3) on food twice a week. You can easily overdose if you use it more often and cause health issues.

Advice d. Have a cuttlefish bone (it comes from the cuttlefish – which is a mollusc) in the enclosure. If the tortoise feels it needs more calcium it can eat as much as it needs.

Advice e. Supplement with calcium powder twice a week. Have a cuttlefish bone available at all times.

Generally, I would go with e. Part of the problem is that different species and different sizes or sexes have different supplementation needs. A growing baby needs more. A growing baby of a giant species needs even more than more. Egg laying females generally need more calcium supplementation than an adult male. This is also diet dependent. Someone who feeds a lot of lettuce or other grocery store greens, is likely to need more calcium supplementation than someone who is feeding weeds, opuntia, and mulberry leaves.

Another reason for the conflicting info is that tortoises can take a very long time to show problems related to this subject. A tortoise on a calcium deficient diet with no supplementation can live for years showing no symptoms, leading the keeper to think that all is good and no supplementation is needed. Like wise, and over-supplelemnted tortoise might also live for years without showing obvious signs of a problem. Additionally, I think there is a lot of room in-between over and under supplementing. People who do a little too much or a little too little are not likely to ever have a problem.

In my experience, a little pinch twice a week is enough to keep a tortoise in the right zone, but not too much that it could cause deficiencies with other important nutrients and trace elements. Calcium too often can create such deficiencies. During growth spurts, especially with giants like sulcatas I think it is a great idea to allow them to self-supplement with the cuttlebone. My sulcatas will often ignore cuttle bone for months, and then suddenly munch down the whole thing in one day.

 

[JoesMum]

Sure! Why not?

Example 2: Use of supplements such as calcium (with D3).

Advice a: No need to use a supplement. A varied diet will take care of calcium needs.

Advice b. Use supplements daily. That’s what they are for. You can’t overdose using a daily supplement.

Advice c. Sprinkle calcium powder (with D3) on food twice a week. You can easily overdose if you use it more often and cause health issues.

Advice d. Have a cuttlefish bone (it comes from the cuttlefish – which is a mollusc) in the enclosure. If the tortoise feels it needs more calcium it can eat as much as it needs.

Advice e. Supplement with calcium powder twice a week. Have a cuttlefish bone available at all times.

It's no different to what you would say to humans about taking a vitamin supplement.

With the correct diet, nobody needs one.

However, as you read about the diet and lifestyle of an individual you understand the circumstances and a particular course becomes a sensible suggestion.

I would never use b as overdose is possible and a is unlikely from me simply because d as a bare minimum aids beak maintenance. Beyond that, it depends on all the factors mentioned by Tom.

 

[dmmj]

all you need to know is I'm right everybody else is wrong, case closed

 

[Tom]

all you need to know is I'm right everybody else is wrong, case closed

That is because you are awesome. Captain Awesome. Wayyyyyyyy better than Captain Obvious...