soft tumor in tortoise's leg

[Kasia]

The lump is definitely in the soft part, surrounded by the baggy skin, it's quite far away from the knee, actually I would say it's close to this horny buttock (yeah I know tortoises don't have buttocks but I have no idea how to call this area).
The doctor examined the spot quite carefully with a magnifying glass because his first impression was that it might be a splinter. But he hasn't found anything.
He also said that he has no idea what to do in this case and that he feels he can't help me at this point.
If the puffiness remains despite chamomile soaks and the use of topical I will look for a different vet here or try to go to another city (Kasia - I know dr Maluta and dr Marciniak i Warsaw - my tort has been their patient several years ago).
I am wondering though why she keeps walking and climbing just as she used to with no difficulty if it all comes from sick joint... It is really not bothering her at all I've been touching this place many times and she's just perfectly ok with it.

Maluta is the one I would recommend - hip USG would makes sense, it would tell if its a lymph node or the joint - actually I have had ruptured knee joint capsule and it does not hurt as bad as it look. Wish Your Baby all the best

 

[martaemha]

Thank you Kasia
What kind of treatment do you think they might suggest if it turns out it is ruptured joint capsule?
I also have a fantastic vet in my home city and I am considering seeing him. Tried to reach him on the phone today but he was busy doing some surgery.

 

[martaemha]

Kasia, would you mind giving me your email address? I have a few different specific questions to ask but I don't want to spam this thread.

 

[Kasia]

Thank you Kasia
What kind of treatment do you think they might suggest if it turns out it is ruptured joint capsule?
I also have a fantastic vet in my home city and I am considering seeing him. Tried to reach him on the phone today but he was busy doing some surgery.

Russians are monkeys - limiting their movments is out of question. The leg should heel on its own if it's the rapture. Hugs and kisses

 

[Pearly]

The lump is definitely in the soft part, surrounded by the baggy skin, it's quite far away from the knee, actually I would say it's close to this horny buttock (yeah I know tortoises don't have buttocks but I have no idea how to call this area).
The doctor examined the spot quite carefully with a magnifying glass because his first impression was that it might be a splinter. But he hasn't found anything.
He also said that he has no idea what to do in this case and that he feels he can't help me at this point.
If the puffiness remains despite chamomile soaks and the use of topical I will look for a different vet here or try to go to another city (Kasia - I know dr Maluta and dr Marciniak i Warsaw - my tort has been their patient several years ago).
I am wondering though why she keeps walking and climbing just as she used to with no difficulty if it all comes from sick joint... It is really not bothering her at all I've been touching this place many times and she's just perfectly ok with it.

My blind guess just based on your description would be either joint or lymph node. Imaging of some sort would be more revealing if it's possible and practical for you. If not, just watch her behavior, appetite, do warm baths daily, boost her diet with goodies that Russians love/need, I'd also try ani inflammatory herbs mixed with food. Basically- supportive care and hopefully her system deals with it on its own.

 

[martaemha]

Thank you for these suggestions Pearly!
Today I got some herbs for her. Unfortunately we're nearing winter here in Poland so it's not the fresh stuff but I sprinkled the dry herbs with water. I got daisies, calendula, rose buds and rose petals, mallow, birch leaves, yarrow and willow bark . I think that birch leaves and willow bark are the most anti inflammatory ones, as they contain salicylic acid. I am giving this to her in addition to fresh common dandelion, ribwort plantain, common plantain, clover, nettle and melissa from my greenhouse. Of course she hates these new herbs and tried to eat only what she likes but it was very well mixed together so since she was hungry she had no other option. She is doing just fine, devastating the enclosure as usual

I managed to reach my trusted vet on the phone. He said that for him this seems to be an abscess, as he has seen many located just next to the buttocks. He also said that puncturing the lump didn't produce anything apart from blood and plasma because abscesses are often quite solid and too thick to be extracted by a needle. He also said that he is quite concerned, because until the lump wasn't pierced with a syringe, it was more or less sterile, but now after puncturing it and squeezing it might have been contaminated with bacteria and pathogens. He said that usually it is wise to administer enrofloxacin after such procedures. For now he told me to make sure the area is clean or to use a solution of betadine or ethacridine lactate.

Anyways, I am giving her time until next week. If the lump doesn't disappear on its own or there are some other symptoms, I will travel to my home city and check with my vet.

 

[Pearly]

Thank you for these suggestions Pearly!
Today I got some herbs for her. Unfortunately we're nearing winter here in Poland so it's not the fresh stuff but I sprinkled the dry herbs with water. I got daisies, calendula, rose buds and rose petals, mallow, birch leaves, yarrow and willow bark . I think that birch leaves and willow bark are the most anti inflammatory ones, as they contain salicylic acid. I am giving this to her in addition to fresh common dandelion, ribwort plantain, common plantain, clover, nettle and melissa from my greenhouse. Of course she hates these new herbs and tried to eat only what she likes but it was very well mixed together so since she was hungry she had no other option. She is doing just fine, devastating the enclosure as usual

I managed to reach my trusted vet on the phone. He said that for him this seems to be an abscess, as he has seen many located just next to the buttocks. He also said that puncturing the lump didn't produce anything apart from blood and plasma because abscesses are often quite solid and too thick to be extracted by a needle. He also said that he is quite concerned, because until the lump wasn't pierced with a syringe, it was more or less sterile, but now after puncturing it and squeezing it might have been contaminated with bacteria and pathogens. He said that usually it is wise to administer enrofloxacin after such procedures. For now he told me to make sure the area is clean or to use a solution of betadine or ethacridine lactate.

Anyways, I am giving her time until next week. If the lump doesn't disappear on its own or there are some other symptoms, I will travel to my home city and check with my vet.

Hey Marta, glad you have trusted vet to go to when push comes to shove. Once more I'm being reminded how it's always better to have "fresh pair of eyes" look at things. I didn't even think of the abscess option thinking that has been completely ruled out, but true! Thick puss may have not come in the aspirated.... But... I'd think the culture would still grow SOMETHING... if it was indeed abscess. Anyway, empirically dosing with antibiotic is a reasonable choice IMO. You seem to know your stuff so I don't think I'd have anything else to contribute, except one thing about the herbs and water. If the herbs are given in a tea form with drinking water just be sure she doesn't get turned off to drinking. If she starts turning her nose up to her liquid intake I think I'd switch to dry herbs, just grind them up well and mix with Mazuri mash or whatever mash she likes (baby food type of stuff). Keep us posted

 

[martaemha]

Hey Pearly,
This is very much true what you're saying about growing the culture. The thing is, there was no culture… The liquid gathered with a syringe was placed on a slide, left to dry and then covered with a coverslip. I am not an expert but I don't think this is the right way to grow cultures (Pearly, correct me of I'm wrong).
And about the herbs - don't worry, I am just sprinkling them with very little amount of water and then mixing with her fresh greens, so that the dry ones stick to the fresh leaves. The only time I saw my Russian tort drinking was years ago when I got her and she was extremely dehydrated then. Now she never does that, always keeps her head up in the bath or on one of her arms to avoid liquid intake

 

[martaemha]

Just a quick follow up on my tort's condition.
At the beginning of March, when severe frost was finally over here in Poland, I took my little one to the vet in the city I live in. She gave her ultrasonography and said that she is 100% positive that there is an encysted abscess that needs to be removed. She also said that she can't perform the surgery because she doesn't have inhalation anesthesia (which I wanted as isofluorane or sevofluorane agents seem to be the safest ones). So I decided to find another vet and yesterday we took a trip to another city. She was supposed to have a surgery in the evening but first off they started with a thorough diagnosis. Two hours after performing a biopsy they call me and say that the abscess has been excluded! The growth is supplied with blood and it seems to be a benign (noncancerous) fibroma. They sent the samples to some vets in Germany in order to confirm this diagnosis, but since this lump hasn't grown at all over the last, well almost six months now (she might have had it earlier and I just didn't notice), it hasn't affected her walking and limb mobility in any way and it is not painful for her at all, chances are it is nothing to worry about. It is encysted and located in loose layers of the skin so it causes no damage to the bones, tendons or muscles. So they suggested to just leave it as it is. Anesthesia in reptiles is always a stress for the organism and given her past (inappropriate diet, MBD history) it just makes no sense to perform this surgery. The whole thing was very stressful for her, she got diarrhea and after collecting blood she was put on a drip because she was very dehydrated. Today she woke me up, demolishing her provisional enclosure which we set up in a hotel, ready to go home. So, here we are. Still waiting for the final confirmation from the German vets though. I am writing this mainly because the possibility of tortoise developing a tumor is almost always flatly excluded, so maybe this info will be helpful for some of you and your torts.

 

[greenighs]

Thank you for the update! I'm glad that she doesn't require anesthesia and surgery!

 

[Kori5]

Bardzo się cieszę, że się poznałyśmy. Mam na imię Ewa, 49 lat i mieszkam z mężem i trójka (nie ma "a" z ogonkiem w moim ipadzie dzieci w centralnym Texasie. Tyle po polsku.
Just wanted to let you know that English is very much secondary to me. Back in my days we had to learn Russian and in high school I had French. So moving to the US I was fluent in 2 foreign languages but neither one of those was English I hope your tort gets over that thing soon. It may just be a cyst caused by repetitive tissue trauma (pressure or rubbing against the hard surface). If that's the case her body will re-absorb it. Just keep her away from situation where she's subject to this same activity (that's if location of the lump is consistent with the traumatic action) and warm soaks will aid here body in taking care of it. Chamomile sounds awesome!

I understood almost everything. I had no idea you're Polish. I'm Croatian . And just last week when I was at the hairdresser, a tourist couple came and I was a translator. Then she smilled and said: Oh we're Polish so we do understand some words. Back to the topic. I wish luck to the autor with your tortoise. Hope everything goes well .

 

[Pearly]

Hey Pearly,
This is very much true what you're saying about growing the culture. The thing is, there was no culture… The liquid gathered with a syringe was placed on a slide, left to dry and then covered with a coverslip. I am not an expert but I don't think this is the right way to grow cultures (Pearly, correct me of I'm wrong).
And about the herbs - don't worry, I am just sprinkling them with very little amount of water and then mixing with her fresh greens, so that the dry ones stick to the fresh leaves. The only time I saw my Russian tort drinking was years ago when I got her and she was extremely dehydrated then. Now she never does that, always keeps her head up in the bath or on one of her arms to avoid liquid intake

Omg! Somehow I had missed alert for your post! I am so sorry if you thoughy I was ignoring you! And you arecorrect about the culture, the way you described it is not the way it's done in lab setting

 

[Pearly]

I understood almost everything. I had no idea you're Polish. I'm Croatian . And just last week when I was at the hairdresser, a tourist couple came and I was a translator. Then she smilled and said: Oh we're Polish so we do understand some words. Back to the topic. I wish luck to the autor with your tortoise. Hope everything goes well .

Hey Kori, small world! Or should I say small Europe! I have couple of Serbian friends and at times I see their FB public exchanges and also understand most of it.

 

[Pearly]

Just a quick follow up on my tort's condition.
At the beginning of March, when severe frost was finally over here in Poland, I took my little one to the vet in the city I live in. She gave her ultrasonography and said that she is 100% positive that there is an encysted abscess that needs to be removed. She also said that she can't perform the surgery because she doesn't have inhalation anesthesia (which I wanted as isofluorane or sevofluorane agents seem to be the safest ones). So I decided to find another vet and yesterday we took a trip to another city. She was supposed to have a surgery in the evening but first off they started with a thorough diagnosis. Two hours after performing a biopsy they call me and say that the abscess has been excluded! The growth is supplied with blood and it seems to be a benign (noncancerous) fibroma. They sent the samples to some vets in Germany in order to confirm this diagnosis, but since this lump hasn't grown at all over the last, well almost six months now (she might have had it earlier and I just didn't notice), it hasn't affected her walking and limb mobility in any way and it is not painful for her at all, chances are it is nothing to worry about. It is encysted and located in loose layers of the skin so it causes no damage to the bones, tendons or muscles. So they suggested to just leave it as it is. Anesthesia in reptiles is always a stress for the organism and given her past (inappropriate diet, MBD history) it just makes no sense to perform this surgery. The whole thing was very stressful for her, she got diarrhea and after collecting blood she was put on a drip because she was very dehydrated. Today she woke me up, demolishing her provisional enclosure which we set up in a hotel, ready to go home. So, here we are. Still waiting for the final confirmation from the German vets though. I am writing this mainly because the possibility of tortoise developing a tumor is almost always flatly excluded, so maybe this info will be helpful for some of you and your torts.

Wow!!!!!!!! To think you almost put your tort through major procedure and your pocketbook throught big unnecessary expense... I'm glad things have worked out for you. Where do you live in Poland? I was born in Chełm and lived in little village Świerże upon Bug as a little kid. Then all of my school years we lived in Upper Silesia (Jastrzębie Zrój, Wodzisław Śląski, Rybnik). I left the country right before first democratic election in 1989

 

[martaemha]

Hi and thanks everybody! Well...yeah, correct diagnosis is a key to success I guess. I am glad that I found this vet, they have a lab and everything and they seemed very concerned because right from the start I told them she's got an abscess and that it was confirmed thousand times blah blah blah. Good that they didn't trust me and checked for themselves! Today they sent me the results of blood work via email and said that given her history of MBD they are excellent. This makes me happy, however I wanted to find a chart with blood cell morphology and plasma biochemistry optimum ranges for russian torts to have as a reference point. I posted it on Russian torts forum but no answers yet. Maybe any of you has an idea about the best ranges of these parameters?
Pearly, no I didn't think you're ignoring me! I come from Łódź, but now live in Poznań because I am doing my PhD here. And with the tort we traveled to a vet in Wrocław. Don't want to go into politics too much, but since you've mentioned leaving before democratic election, I thought I'd just say that since today in Poland democracy again seems to be a thing of the past I too am considering leaving the country.
And here you can see a one happy tort enjoying her first walk in the woods this year!

 

[Kori5]

She is a cute pumpkin.