Self-regulating temperature when asleep?

[Tom]

I think you have misunderstood my situation. The table most often get direct sunlight from our windows that bring large areas of the table up to 95-100 degrees - for basking. It is sunny down here about 95 percent of the time - high desert. So 95 percent of the time, there is natural light for basking in that offers about 95-100 degree heat.

The other 5 percent of the time, when it is cloudy, I put a heated mat in the hide. This tort is not in a tank. It is in a homemade table and the heat mat is under cement board and plaster so that the heat is distributed and not acute. It warms the hide without creating hotspots if that is your concern. I imagine that torts like to sit on sun warmed rocks at times? That is the effect.

Currently it is still warm enough here to have him outside for a few hours on sunny days a few days per week. I have a low watt UVB bulb for the times when he will no longer be able to go outside that we can easily run on our solar system. The low watt UVB will be used in conjunction with the natural light coming in the window - at 95-100 degrees - as a heat source.

Lastly, my question was related to the times when it is sunny and therefore hot - if the tort goes in the heated hide at these times, will he move into one of the unheated hides if he gets too hot. Really my question is about how intelligent torts are and how easily they can learn. I hope that is clearer for you.

I too care about the welfare of the animal and that is why I posted in the first place. I will not hesitate to rehome him if I cannot care for him adequately. I don't think that is the case as I'm not a total dumb ***

• In a sunny window at 95-100 is way too hot. They need a small area that is kept at 95-100, not the whole table. And to answer your original question, no, they don't always know to move to an area of the correct temperature. There are many reasons why they choose to park in one place or another, and many times they choose poorly with fatal consequences. So no, they are not aways smart enough to figure out where they should be resting or sleeping according to temperature.
• I say again, undertank heating is not safe or effective for tortoises. If it hot enough to matter, its not safe. If if covered with enough stuff to make it safe, then it won't be effective. And while it seems like yours is buried under enough stuff to keep it safe, the tortoise still needs a basking area on those cold or cloudy days. I shot a movie for 6 weeks in Taos. We had plenty of cloudy days that year.
• The low watt UV bulb you are using is not effective and not safe. Those sometimes burn tortoise eyes and shouldn't be used. That is why I suggested a long tube. Similar wattage, but more effective and safer.
• You don't need a high wattage basing bulb. I typically use 65 watt flood bulbs, and sometimes even smaller.
• I don't think you are a dumbass, total or otherwise. You asked a question and I'm answering. I don't think the way you are housing this tortoise is suitable. I wouldn't recommend that anyone do it that way. I think you need to get the tortoise table out of the sun and into a different part of the room and offer a simple low wattage basking bulb along with a safe UV tube for your cold winters.

 

[Cathie G]

lol. Well the issues are related - we are talking on different ends of the same issue. But I am interested in the devices you have seen for heating? Heat bulbs charged via USB? The problem with producing heat on a solar system is that it requires a great deal of power to convert electricity to heat. Hence the name "resistance elements" But if you have an idea that may allow me to provide a low watt heat on cloudy days I'm listening

there actually is a way to do that but it's complicated. My son can explain it not me.. Are you talking about uvb or heat lamps? Depends on what operating voltages, wattage of the bulbs,and what type of solar power banks you have.etc...

 

[DesertGirl]

Hello. My family just got a Golden Greek a few weeks ago that was in need of a home. He?? (still need to figure this out is about 5 years old. As we live off grid, on solar (passively solar heated and active solar for power) we have had to be creative with the enclosure heating situation. We do not have the capacity run a high wattage basking light. However, the 4x3 table we have built is in our window and so during the day, it is well passively heated (ranges between areas with 75 and those with 90 on a sunny day). However, on a cloudy day our house (and the tortoise enclosure) can drop down to 60-65. To combat this without using a basking lamp, we have a low watt heat pad under one of the hides that keeps it toasty (at about 75 inside on a cloudy day). My question is: if Eugie goes in the heated hide during sunny days it may get up to 100 degrees in there. After he is asleep, if this is too hot for him, will he wake and move to one of the cooler, unheated hides? Just interested in the degree to which these guys can self regulate temperature, especially when they sleep. On a side note, we do have a UVB bulb as we can run its 13 watts on our solar system and we live in New Mexico, so most days are sunny ones. Thank you all.

I don’t think anyone has answered the question Joma asked. Tortoises are very intelligent. If he is too hot, he will move. Some ppl underestimate animal intelligence. How could stupid things survive? But then I look at some humans and question that!

 

[Joma]

I don’t think anyone has answered the question Joma asked. Tortoises are very intelligent. If he is too hot, he will move. Some ppl underestimate animal intelligence. How could stupid things survive? But then I look at some humans and question that!

Thank you!!! Yes. That is what I asked I will trust him to choose and will add my two cents into his life occasionally lol

 

[Cathie G]

I think you have misunderstood my situation. The table most often get direct sunlight from our windows that bring large areas of the table up to 95-100 degrees - for basking. It is sunny down here about 95 percent of the time - high desert. So 95 percent of the time, there is natural light for basking in that offers about 95-100 degree heat.

The other 5 percent of the time, when it is cloudy, I put a heated mat in the hide. This tort is not in a tank. It is in a homemade table and the heat mat is under cement board and plaster so that the heat is distributed and not acute. It warms the hide without creating hotspots if that is your concern. I imagine that torts like to sit on sun warmed rocks at times? That is the effect.

Currently it is still warm enough here to have him outside for a few hours on sunny days a few days per week. I have a low watt UVB bulb for the times when he will no longer be able to go outside that we can easily run on our solar system. The low watt UVB will be used in conjunction with the natural light coming in the window - at 95-100 degrees - as a heat source.

Lastly, my question was related to the times when it is sunny and therefore hot - if the tort goes in the heated hide at these times, will he move into one of the unheated hides if he gets too hot. Really my question is about how intelligent torts are and how easily they can learn. I hope that is clearer for you.

I too care about the welfare of the animal and that is why I posted in the first place. I will not hesitate to rehome him if I cannot care for him adequately. I don't think that is the case as I'm not a total dumb ***

I think you are trying really hard. A tortoise is very intelligent. If they get too hot they will try to get cooler. If they get too cold you will have to move he she. Not once have I even considered you dumb. I really think you can do it and are trying your heart out...best wishes.

 

[Joma]

• In a sunny window at 95-100 is way too hot. They need a small area that is kept at 95-100, not the whole table. And to answer your original question, no, they don't always know to move to an area of the correct temperature. There are many reasons why they choose to park in one place or another, and many times they choose poorly with fatal consequences. So no, they are not aways smart enough to figure out where they should be resting or sleeping according to temperature.
• I say again, undertank heating is not safe or effective for tortoises. If it hot enough to matter, its not safe. If if covered with enough stuff to make it safe, then it won't be effective. And while it seems like yours is buried under enough stuff to keep it safe, the tortoise still needs a basking area on those cold or cloudy days. I shot a movie for 6 weeks in Taos. We had plenty of cloudy days that year.
• The low watt UV bulb you are using is not effective and not safe. Those sometimes burn tortoise eyes and shouldn't be used. That is why I suggested a long tube. Similar wattage, but more effective and safer.
• You don't need a high wattage basing bulb. I typically use 65 watt flood bulbs, and sometimes even smaller.
• I don't think you are a dumbass, total or otherwise. You asked a question and I'm answering. I don't think the way you are housing this tortoise is suitable. I wouldn't recommend that anyone do it that way. I think you need to get the tortoise table out of the sun and into a different part of the room and offer a simple low wattage basking bulb along with a safe UV tube for your cold winters.

- I did not say "the whole table" is filled with direct sunlight. Only part of it is. And that sunlite part shifts as the sun moves across the sky. I think you are failing to remember that torts actually do live in places where humans don't wholly control their environment. Similarly, many on this forum are advocating for torts to be housed outside. I imagine those torts will also experience the "ins and outs" of the natural environment. Correct?

- I've lived in Tao for 15 years so I will go ahead and trust my experience re. the amount of sunny days. However, you are correct, there are some days that are cloudy. I imagine that would also occur naturally as well, no? Nevertheless, it are these cloudy days, few as they are, that I am referring to.

- On a cloudy day, I cannot operate a 65 watt bulb on my system. It takes up too much power when not enough power is coming in from the sun. On a sunny day, I don't need such a bulb. The heat matt is for cloudy days so that he is maintained at a certain level of warmth.

- I do however, appreciate your comment about their intelligence. That does address my original question. Thank you

What I have taken from your answers is this:

- Currently my heat mat is on a timer. Perhaps I will take it off the timer and use it only on the days that are cloudy.

Lastly, yes. Shooting first and asking questions later, does make me believe that you are considering me a dumbass

 

[Cathie G]

I don’t think anyone has answered the question Joma asked. Tortoises are very intelligent. If he is too hot, he will move. Some ppl underestimate animal intelligence. How could stupid things survive? But then I look at some humans and question that!

Me too...lol...

 

[Cathie G]

@Joma Dumb question from someone who lives in North Florida... How do you keep your home cool (or not too hot) in the summer?

Do you utilize any wind energy in your microclimate for the overnight period?

that is not a dumb question!!! That is one way that Joma can do a battery pack for days when she needs to run a bit of extra stuff for her tortoise and not use or depend on the home's stored energy...but now I got my son interested and he's hvac licensed. He has a little home and he's comparing that stuff anyway. We talked...lol

 

[Cathie G]

Well our home is warmer using pass solar (basically the sunlight coming in the windows). The whole front face is top to bottom windows. Heat is maintained using thermal mass (concrete, the house is buried in the back etc). Cooled on with open windows the old fashioned way. Power comes from a solar system. Most of the time our house is a comfortable 70-80 degrees - in the direct sunlight it is more and that is why part of our tort table is in the direct sunlight. Natural basking

Actually, we built a lovey tortoise table in the window of our home. On sunny days large parts of the enclosure hang around 95 degrees. When we get cloudy days it can be cool (around 65) and that is why I added a heat mat in one hide. We cannot run a 125 watt bulb in our solar system on cloudy days and we don't need such a bulb on sunny days. I think that about sums it up except to say that in NM, it is almost always sunny. Hence my question about the tort overheating in his heated hide

Sorry I keep posting but why would you need a125 watt bulb? My son was looking up reptile lights for artificial sunlight and they aren't that high in watts. If you can run the heat pad too...it's bound to be warmer. I think the wattage he was seeing was more like 26. He always counts all of that stuff because he lives in an rv(little house). Don't give up. You are being a good tortoise mom.

 

[Joma]

Sorry I keep posting but why would you need a125 watt bulb? My son was looking up reptile lights for artificial sunlight and they aren't that high in watts. If you can run the heat pad too...it's bound to be warmer. I think the wattage he was seeing was more like 26. He always counts all of that stuff because he lives in an rv(little house). Don't give up. You are being a good tortoise mom.

Thanks Cathy. Yes the UVB bulbs are as low as 13 watts. I can and will run a UVB. Its the heat bulbs that are higher wattage.

 

[Joma]

• In a sunny window at 95-100 is way too hot. They need a small area that is kept at 95-100, not the whole table. And to answer your original question, no, they don't always know to move to an area of the correct temperature. There are many reasons why they choose to park in one place or another, and many times they choose poorly with fatal consequences. So no, they are not aways smart enough to figure out where they should be resting or sleeping according to temperature.
• I say again, undertank heating is not safe or effective for tortoises. If it hot enough to matter, its not safe. If if covered with enough stuff to make it safe, then it won't be effective. And while it seems like yours is buried under enough stuff to keep it safe, the tortoise still needs a basking area on those cold or cloudy days. I shot a movie for 6 weeks in Taos. We had plenty of cloudy days that year.
• The low watt UV bulb you are using is not effective and not safe. Those sometimes burn tortoise eyes and shouldn't be used. That is why I suggested a long tube. Similar wattage, but more effective and safer.
• You don't need a high wattage basing bulb. I typically use 65 watt flood bulbs, and sometimes even smaller.
• I don't think you are a dumbass, total or otherwise. You asked a question and I'm answering. I don't think the way you are housing this tortoise is suitable. I wouldn't recommend that anyone do it that way. I think you need to get the tortoise table out of the sun and into a different part of the room and offer a simple low wattage basking bulb along with a safe UV tube for your cold winters.

Good morning @Tom . Perhaps I can hit the reset button. I do appreciate your advice and your knowledge. You obviously have more experience than I. Thank you for your input. I don't want to stalk off these forums POed.

I also understand your concerns about my set-up, it is not conventional where heat is concerned - I live in an unconventional house. Without having you over for lunch (which I am happy to do should you shoot here again , I don't think I can personally demonstrate that yes, I am being very careful with this small tortoise vis a vis heat. Perhaps you will trust me when I say, I have watched how the sun moves over his table and I have temped his enclosure in numerous locations, in and out of the sunny spots, numerous times and will continue to do so. While I am no expert, I do understand the basics of the heat or lack thereof that he requires and believe that I can meet those needs. If I discover I cannot, I will find him another home as per your suggestion.

I have attached a couple of pics of him and his enclosure in case you are interested. I hope that you will continue to offer me advice when I ask and will extend trust in my novice level competence in return.

Best, Joanna

I will PM you too for good measure

 

[Cathie G]

Thanks Cathy. Yes the UVB bulbs are as low as 13 watts. I can and will run a UVB. Its the heat bulbs that are higher wattage.

Your table and your home is absolutely beautiful...but why does it have to be a heat lamp when the main concern for babies is enough humidity and then enough warmth. There are other options for warmth that aren't actually drying out your tortoise and you. I can't breathe in low humidity and my eyes dry out...i guess I'm a tortoise at heart...

 

[Joma]

It has occurred to me that there may be some misconceptions on this forum about what it is to live off grid. So before I drop this thread, I want to clear those up because they do have an impact on the environmental issues I have been referring to. I know many of you are tortoise experts but may not be off grid housing experts. I hope I am not belaboring the point

- someone concluded that I don't have power lol. Yes, I do have power, I have internet, TV, a fridge etc. My power is scarcer when the sun is not out. But even then, it exists. Additionally, I can plug a gas generator into my inverter if need be. I live Northern New Mexico and we generally get over 300 days of sun a year.

- my house is heated passively. The sun shines in the window, it heats the air and, most significantly, it heats the "mass" of the house (called "thermal mass"). My house is heavy and it is small (900 square ft). It is buried (underground) in the back (north) and the front face (south) is ceiling to floor windows. It is constructed of alot of cement and plaster. When the sun is not shining, the house maintains its temperature by the mass slowly releasing heat into the house. In the summer, when it is hot outdoors, the sun is also higher in the sky. Therefore, less direct light comes into the house and the interior of the house is more consistent with outside temps. In the winter, when it is colder outside (and Taos get cold, esp at night), the sun is also lower in the sky allowing more direct sunlight into the house to heat up the mass. During this time, my house can actually be at its warmest (75-80 degrees) and the temps indoors obviously diverge greatly from those outdoors. Even during the longest stretch of cloud in the winter, the lowest temp my house will generally get to is 68-70. and even at this, it takes a few days to get this low. It is not like all of a sudden it goes from 80 to 50 degrees.

Here is a link that also explains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship

I have been cruising these threads for information on many things and have talked privately with @Tom . I found a thread that seems to somewhat address my questions. The response I was interested in was from @Madkins007 because it was different than what I have previously heard.
abouthttps://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-long-can-a-baby-tort-go-without-light-and-uvb.53853/

I thank everyone who commented previously and if anyone else has additional comments, particularly about the thread I just posted, I would be interested to hear.

 

[Tom]

Good post Joma. Great explanation of the "earth ship" concept. Thank you.

 

[Cathie G]

It has occurred to me that there may be some misconceptions on this forum about what it is to live off grid. So before I drop this thread, I want to clear those up because they do have an impact on the environmental issues I have been referring to. I know many of you are tortoise experts but may not be off grid housing experts. I hope I am not belaboring the point

- someone concluded that I don't have power lol. Yes, I do have power, I have internet, TV, a fridge etc. My power is scarcer when the sun is not out. But even then, it exists. Additionally, I can plug a gas generator into my inverter if need be. I live Northern New Mexico and we generally get over 300 days of sun a year.

- my house is heated passively. The sun shines in the window, it heats the air and, most significantly, it heats the "mass" of the house (called "thermal mass"). My house is heavy and it is small (900 square ft). It is buried (underground) in the back (north) and the front face (south) is ceiling to floor windows. It is constructed of alot of cement and plaster. When the sun is not shining, the house maintains its temperature by the mass slowly releasing heat into the house. In the summer, when it is hot outdoors, the sun is also higher in the sky. Therefore, less direct light comes into the house and the interior of the house is more consistent with outside temps. In the winter, when it is colder outside (and Taos get cold, esp at night), the sun is also lower in the sky allowing more direct sunlight into the house to heat up the mass. During this time, my house can actually be at its warmest (75-80 degrees) and the temps indoors obviously diverge greatly from those outdoors. Even during the longest stretch of cloud in the winter, the lowest temp my house will generally get to is 68-70. and even at this, it takes a few days to get this low. It is not like all of a sudden it goes from 80 to 50 degrees.

Here is a link that also explains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship

I have been cruising these threads for information on many things and have talked privately with @Tom . I found a thread that seems to somewhat address my questions. The response I was interested in was from @Madkins007 because it was different than what I have previously heard.
abouthttps://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-long-can-a-baby-tort-go-without-light-and-uvb.53853/

I thank everyone who commented previously and if anyone else has additional comments, particularly about the thread I just posted, I would be interested to hear.

Love to you. I know you'll find the perfect way. I looked up your tortoise and although mine is a Russian they require about the same temperature, humidity,etc and you aren't dealing with a hatchling.

 

[Joma]

Good post Joma. Great explanation of the "earth ship" concept. Thank you.

Thank you @Tom
You know, more abstractly, this conversation got me to thinking (from a non-expert lol)....this way of keeping Eugie indoors potentially mimics natural environs more closely than some more controlled indoor situations. Particularly, the heat (basking) moving across the enclosure through the window as the sun moves across the sky during the day and the possibility of increased variabilities in temp (minus extremes). It makes me wonder how that (possibly?) more natural effect and rhythm plays out re. health. And that is not to suggest that well controlled indoor environments are not the more beneficial - most captive animals live longer than their wild counterparts lol.
Eugie, as he came to me with a damaged shell (both from a dog cracking part of it and what appears to be pyramiding) and therefore his health previously compromised? will not give us the answers...Mostly, just interesting thoughts to consider

 

[Tom]

Thank you @Tom
You know, more abstractly, this conversation got me to thinking (from a non-expert lol)....this way of keeping Eugie indoors potentially mimics natural environs more closely than some more controlled indoor situations. Particularly, the heat (basking) moving across the enclosure through the window as the sun moves across the sky during the day and the possibility of increased variabilities in temp (minus extremes). It makes me wonder how that (possibly?) more natural effect and rhythm plays out re. health. And that is not to suggest that well controlled indoor environments are not the more beneficial - most captive animals live longer than their wild counterparts lol.
Eugie, as he came to me with a damaged shell (both from a dog cracking part of it and what appears to be pyramiding) and therefore his health previously compromised? will not give us the answers...Mostly, just interesting thoughts to consider

Agreed. Sometimes we learn the most from unexpected situations. I know what I know because of decades of trial and error. Lots of error. I think you might run into trouble doing it the way you are doing it, but I'd be happy to be wrong because that means I'd be learning something new. Lots of people were happy to tell me I was wrong when I joined this forum and started advocating for monsoon conditions for tropical species of tortoises, but I already knew I was right because I'd been doing it for a while. They didn't know that though...

My point is, if it doesn't go well, we learn. If it does go well, we learn even more. Personally, I hope you succeed and share all the details with us.

 

[Joma]

Agreed. Sometimes we learn the most from unexpected situations. I know what I know because of decades of trial and error. Lots of error. I think you might run into trouble doing it the way you are doing it, but I'd be happy to be wrong because that means I'd be learning something new. Lots of people were happy to tell me I was wrong when I joined this forum and started advocating for monsoon conditions for tropical species of tortoises, but I already knew I was right because I'd been doing it for a while. They didn't know that though...

My point is, if it doesn't go well, we learn. If it does go well, we learn even more. Personally, I hope you succeed and share all the details with us.

Gosh @Tom, I apologize. I am one of those people that is FULL of questions when they take something new on.

Re. your monsoon experience. Where I live we also experience what we refer to as "monsoon" season. It runs late July to early Sept. Basically, it is little storm clouds that can produce intense rain, wind and cool temps. The morning could slowly climb to a beautiful 90 degrees and calm by midday, and then, as the clouds build to the west, and if a little storm happens to pass over you or near you, all of a sudden you are in windy, 55 degree weather for an hour until the storm passes and the temp starts to creep up again toward evening. It doesn't happen that often, hence the semi-arid designation. Actually, our growing season is a similar length to Toronto, Canada where I grew up because of the high desert climate and its "mood swings". I guess its related to the altitude (7200 ft) and the desert not holding heat as more moist climate do.

So if I were to have my small guy outside during the summer and sat watching from work as little storm crossed the area where I live, would I need to race out there and save him lol ? Basically, how do your monsoons compare when your tortoises where just fine? Thank you

 

[Tom]

Gosh @Tom, I apologize. I am one of those people that is FULL of questions when they take something new on.

Re. your monsoon experience. Where I live we also experience what we refer to as "monsoon" season. It runs late July to early Sept. Basically, it is little storm clouds that can produce intense rain, wind and cool temps. The morning could slowly climb to a beautiful 90 degrees and calm by midday, and then, as the clouds build to the west, and if a little storm happens to pass over you or near you, all of a sudden you are in windy, 55 degree weather for an hour until the storm passes and the temp starts to creep up again toward evening. It doesn't happen that often, hence the semi-arid designation. Actually, our growing season is a similar length to Toronto, Canada where I grew up because of the high desert climate and its "mood swings". I guess its related to the altitude (7200 ft) and the desert not holding heat as more moist climate do.

So if I were to have my small guy outside during the summer and sat watching from work as little storm crossed the area where I live, would I need to race out there and save him lol ? Basically, how do your monsoons compare when your tortoises where just fine? Thank you

"Monsoons" in a temperate desert at altitude are completely different than monsoons in a tropical environment where some of our species come from.

I don't advocate for tropical monsoon conditions for temperate species like greeks, Russians, hermanni or DTs. They don't need those conditions. They need temperate conditions with more moderate temps and humidity, and a more significant night drop in temperature.

At 55 and rainy, yes, I'd bring the tortoise inside to its indoor enclosure, or leave the tortoise inside if I thought weather like that was likely for the day.

 

[Cathie G]

Hay it's Cathie G. Doesn't a turdess and turdle mom dig an underground home for their babies?