RV's Burrow

[cherylim]

Looks like I'm a bit late viewing this thread, but not the only one!

As others have said, thanks so much for sharing this, Tom!

I would be too terrified to have gone into that tunnel, but it's so beautiful and so kind of you to take the pictures and explain them all. Impressive stuff!

 

[paschallraschalls]

That is AWESOME!!!

 

[Grigor.Love.]

Really really incredible. Awesome. Pure awesome.

 

[SteveP]

Very cool!!

 

[Tom]

WOW!! Awesome, thanks for sharing. I never let mine go that far, I get afraid once I cant reach them. Tom, is it okay to let them go that far? I have always read not to. Id love your opinion.

This depends. If you live in AZ, like RV, and its over 100 degrees most of the year, then yes its fine.

For most people its a little more risky. Here are the risks: Collapse, cold, flooding, inaccessibility. If they get down that burrow and the weather turns cold, you are not getting them out. I don't care if you have a truck and a chain. You are not getting a sulcata out of its burrow if it doesn't want to come out. It is for all these reasons that I built this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1b6WWSC1Z

Some people let them dig in the hot summer months and then fill it in and prevent it over the winter months. I have very mixed feelings on the subject. In RV's case it was working great and seemed like a perfect situation. Someday, I might experiment with letting mine dig a bit, but for the time being, they seem pretty content above ground.

 

[Cory]

Oh my goodness that is so neat. That is quite the burrow.

 

[boutselis]

Maddie dug a burrow and got it to 9 ft long in no time because of the sandy soil. When ever it rained she would be at the entrance looking out or sleeping. I thought she liked the rain but now I think it was instinct. Her burrow collapsed during a heavy rain but she was safe

She rebuilt it, this time in a u shape. During a very heavy rain I found her asleep at the opening. It was supposed train all day so I put her in a dry stall. Later that day the new burrow collapsed.

Now she lives in a wooden burrow. I'm gonna try Nd get some pictures of it up in the shelter section

 

[byerssusan]

Awesome pics. An what an awesome experience. Thank you for sharing. It's amazing

 

[Tom]

Maddie dug a burrow and got it to 9 ft long in no time because of the sandy soil. When ever it rained she would be at the entrance looking out or sleeping. I thought she liked the rain but now I think it was instinct. Her burrow collapsed during a heavy rain but she was safe

She rebuilt it, this time in a u shape. During a very heavy rain I found her asleep at the opening. It was supposed train all day so I put her in a dry stall. Later that day the new burrow collapsed.

Now she lives in a wooden burrow. I'm gonna try Nd get some pictures of it up in the shelter section

Please do. I would love to see pics of your set up. All of the stuff I have done with my torts has been inspired by the ingenuity and inventiveness of others.

 

[bfmorris]

This depends. If you live in AZ, like RV, and its over 100 degrees most of the year, then yes its fine.

For most people its a little more risky. Here are the risks: Collapse, cold, flooding, inaccessibility.

My opinion is, Tom has it exactly correct regarding burrows west of the mountains in So Cal. The rains in winter can go for weeks such as during 1980's El Nino years. I used to live in Riverside county with the tortoises, I've seen it rain like that and totally saturate the ground.

Also no sun for weeks to warm up after exiting a burrow. I'd definitely stick with housing.

Attached is a photo of what a burrow made by a 100 plus kilo male looks like, in the desert.

As for constructed underground housing, it's an interesting topic. I see thermal bridging issues arising with materials like concrete, and if the thing isn't floored with conrete the torti will just start a burrow in the chamber. There is no perfect solution for building underground housing, just a series of tradeoffs when the details are carefully examined.

 

[Roxie]

This is such a fascinating thread!

My new guy likes to dig, so we accommodated him. He immediately started a burrow when he arrived, but I was concerned about him digging out of the yard, or getting caught in soft soil or heavy rain. So we built a house for him over his shallow and reinforced the walls so that he couldn't dig out easily. So he has the effect of a burrow without having an actual burrow. It also has a bit of earth on top for insulation. As you nice folks pointed out, the rubbing on his shell was from previous burrowing, so apparently he is a digger at heart.

I check on him periodically throughout the day, and I've also noticed that he rarely poops in his house. He comes out to bask and then poops. I have seen poop in his house only once, on a rainy day when he didn't come out to graze much. It seems pretty clean in there.

 

[Tom]

We would love to see some pics, Roxie.

 

[JLSchmittou]

Wow, Tom. That is really amazing I had no idea!! (obviously).

Question for Teri: I Live on the edge of a culdesack with a huge back yard.. Did you guys do any dictating of where RV could dig? My concern is the hole being too close to the block wall that encases the backyard causing the wall to collapse ( how deep do those stupid walls go anyway?) or even the house foundation??!. This fellow Arizona desert dweller is inspired...

Are these guys known for only one entrance/exit ... It'd be my luck one of my torts would end up in a neighbors yard..?

I'm simply awwestruck... Fascinating...

 

[RV's mom]

RV picked the spot and dug. It was an area where we had a shallow soak for her muddy needs... we walked out one day and she was quite a few feet under, so we let her go (after making sure she wasn't aimed at a fence line, or too close to the house. Our soil is caleche - heavy mineralized soil and so for a while it was safe. sad to say, the roof is falling in and she was digging steps, not a nice slanted entry. We had to lift her out, and so - blocked the entry. We are in the process of trying to fill it in. Our back yard faces south, and her entrance faced south, leading down and inward to the north. I would think if you had a convienent soak spot (away from house and fence) you may/should be alright. Her roof was falling in because of the termite action in the soil. As steady as things seem, the sky will eventually fall. Be prepared.

teri

 

[bfmorris]

RV picked the spot and dug. It was an area where we had a shallow soak for her muddy needs... we walked out one day and she was quite a few feet under, so we let her go (after making sure she wasn't aimed at a fence line, or too close to the house. Our soil is caleche - heavy mineralized soil and so for a while it was safe. sad to say, the roof is falling in and she was digging steps, not a nice slanted entry. We had to lift her out, and so - blocked the entry. We are in the process of trying to fill it in. Our back yard faces south, and her entrance faced south, leading down and inward to the north. I would think if you had a convienent soak spot (away from house and fence) you may/should be alright. Her roof was falling in because of the termite action in the soil. As steady as things seem, the sky will eventually fall. Be prepared.

teri

Oh no! Sorry to read this.

I'm curious what you mean by termite action? Is your soil infested with termites?

Did you guys get a lot of rain this season, maybe that contributed to the collapse at the shallow portion?

 

[DeanS]

Geez Teri! That's terrible! But it sure is great of you to share that with us. For those of you thinking that your tortoise can be 'wild' in captivity...just remember that unless you have acreage...with a lot of scrub...this could happen to you. I'm just grateful that you ladies were able to pull RV out...I hate to think what would have happen had she been deeper.

 

[bfmorris]

Geez Teri! That's terrible! But it sure is great of you to share that with us. For those of you thinking that your tortoise can be 'wild' in captivity...just remember that unless you have acreage...with a lot of scrub...this could happen to you. I'm just grateful that you ladies were able to pull RV out...I hate to think what would have happen had she been deeper.

Hi Dean, burrowing is a fascinating topic, I'm interested in hearing more of your perspective about how acreage and scrub affect whether we let them burrow or not. Not sure I understood what you mean thus far. Thanks!

 

[DeanS]

I know! It was a little vague! I'm more about the safety of the animals than anything else. I fill in any burrow I see from the get-go! And now...nobody burrows!

I mention acreage because the best thing for your animal is to burrow nowhere near any structure at all...house, garage, etc. I'm of the opinion that any soil can cave at anytime...not only do you want your animal to be safe but you don't want your foundation threatened either. Not to mention fence lines, swimming pools...you get the idea!

A lot of tortoise owners have modest property with medium-sized backyards. When I mention acreage and scrub...just think about it. A typical AZ, TX or OK landscape is prairie with considerable scrub with monstrous root systems that hold the soil together. That's when I think burrowing is acceptable for 'domestic' tortoises. And you can only get that with acreage. I don't pretend to be the know-all...and I know that this is going to turn into another debate...and maybe it should. I know those that have let their torts dig their own burrows and then there are those that have built burrows for their tortoises. Let's hear it...what are your experiences...

 

[Zamric]

WalkingRock has a low profile house that feels like a burrow and the dirt floor allows for shallow digging because of the root system of the Oak tree his house is built next to. I am however concidering building him a taller house (he just keeps growing!) and filling it in with a few extra inchs of soil just so he can dig a little deeper and feel more at home.

 

[bfmorris]

I know! It was a little vague! I'm more about the safety of the animals than anything else. I fill in any burrow I see from the get-go! And now...nobody burrows!

I mention acreage because the best thing for your animal is to burrow nowhere near any structure at all...house, garage, etc. I'm of the opinion that any soil can cave at anytime...not only do you want your animal to be safe but you don't want your foundation threatened either. Not to mention fence lines, swimming pools...you get the idea!

A lot of tortoise owners have modest property with medium-sized backyards. When I mention acreage and scrub...just think about it. A typical AZ, TX or OK landscape is prairie with considerable scrub with monstrous root systems that hold the soil together. That's when I think burrowing is acceptable for 'domestic' tortoises. And you can only get that with acreage. I don't pretend to be the know-all...and I know that this is going to turn into another debate...and maybe it should. I know those that have let their torts dig their own burrows and then there are those that have built burrows for their tortoises. Let's hear it...what are your experiences...

Thanks! You won't get much debate from me on this. I'm of the opinion that allowing over-winter burrows west of the mountains in so Cal should be avoided due to heavy saturating winter rains and long periods of cloud cover no matter whether on acreage or not.


Maybe the side of a slope may work, but I'd never risk it myself. Years ago I had the tortoises on large acreage (and no neighbours) in Riverside county, out in the boonies south of Lake Mathews. A female somehow escaped her enclosure and disappeared. She was found over a year later when she wandered back onto the property near the tortoise pens, during breeding season! A few days searching and I found where she had been living all that time in an area of thick brush and grass, and yup, she had made a large deep burrow on a slope. The burrow was still intact, as were her routine paths and browsing routes marked with droppings throught the area. Interestingly, this burrow faced north-east. That winter also saw considerable rain periods and heavy cold rains.

As for Arizona climate type places I think you are correct about neighbourhood back yards; I think the high density of structures cause rainfall to concentrate and saturate small areas of ground, whether the rainfall hits directly on the head of the burrow or not. I know some people that had their sulcata tortoises drown in Yuma from unusual heavy summer rains that suddenly flooded their yard.