Look't the legs -
cdmay said:Hmm...after looking at this tortoise I would not conclude that the shape of its shell is from overfeeding.
Many redfoots--females especially-- develop a round, domed carapace. This is just a common variation that has nothing to do with diet or how much it was fed. I have an enormous female cherryhead that
had a very rounded carapace when she was a 3 inch import. As she grew she continued this trend and now is a highly domed and mostly round looking adult. Two other females that I got at the same time and that were about the same size grew to be perfect adults but with different shaped shells. All are flawless adults but they are not exactly the same in appearence.
On the other hand, many male redfoots (of all forms) develop a flat topped and elongated shell. This also has nothing to do with diet but again, is just a fairly common variation.
cdmay said:I see what your saying but here again, that may or may not have anything to do with a captive diet.
I wouldn't really call this tortoise pyramided even though the scute centers are not perfectly flat. It is not unusual to see wild imported adults that have shells exactly like this one.
Like I said before, there is tremendous plasticity and variation with redfoots (some populations are REALLY variable!) and so even with optimum care you may not get that 'perfectly smooth' carapace that some people think all wild redfoots possess.
Regardless, it is a gorgeous tortoise and I would bet that by the time it is fully adult no one will be complaining about its carapace.
cdmay said:Not taking issue.
But, there are many of us who acheive similar results without making absolute statements about diets or how much they should or should not be fed.
I know of, or have known of, numerous keepers and breeders who feed their animals all they want and get 'perfect' growth from their animals.
These folks have known about humidity and a good diet for decades and have got good results for many years. In addition, these guys (like myself) get very nearly 100% fertility and hatching from eggs their adults produce. Most of these adults have been raised from small juveniles...with typically very nice and natural appearing shells.
For me, the issue is humidity (which you have learned of) and diet.
But humidity is by far the important factor if the diet is reasonable.
By reasonable I mean not overloaded with fats, meats or commercially prepared 'chows'. I have never had an issue with feeding ad lib as long as the diet is high in fiber and has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio and is otherwise balanced.
Overfeeding is bad...IF you are feeding crap or are really overdoing it.
But none of the animals featured in this post show signs of poor manangement in any way. Pointing out some minor variation and saying "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" is nonsense and misleading.
Redfoot NERD said:Carl ( cdmay ) has been my MENTOR for the best part of 5 YEARS. I find it interesting [ although he may deny it ] that he is accusing me of nonsense and misleading claims.. most of which I learned from him. And isn't there a little difference between "...it looks like a little "over-feeding" has occured." and "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" Is not that nonsense and embellished just a tad.. aka misleading?
Carl is saying the same things I am! Most of the "new" redfoot keepers don't know the difference between good and bad and/or what is ( feeding ) all they want and ( feeding ) too much! Which is understandable.. we all have to start somewhere! My experience has been that 'most' of the ones I've hatched and raised to adults will eat until full and then walk away.. BECAUSE they are being fed the 'right' food items. Hardly a week [ it seems almost daily lately ] goes by that someone doesn't write or call asking for help with their redfoot.. and it's ALWAYS a diet or humidity issue!
The MAIN point to be made with this topic is to demonstrate { with pictures! } what happens when the HUMIDITY is too low - which Carl pointed out above.
The occasional effect that occurs with over-feeding can be fixed easily.. when changed early. Again the "right" foods are seldom over-eaten. "Most" everybody that contacts me [ that claim theirs will eat until it's all gone ] admit they are feeding the "wrong" stuff. And of course that's when I assure them that the 'right' stuff will satisfy.. where the 'wrong' stuff never does!
[ forgive me while I rant please ] Go ahead Shawn and Carl and show us pictures that back your claims and that which you agree with. Go ahead and attempt to "publish" a CARESHEET that is always correct and applies to every known senario out there. Go ahead and subject yourself to all of the "taken out of context" accusations and [ talk about ] nonsense - with seldom or ever ANYTHING to back it up. Of all of the wild-caught redfoots that I've seen in person or seen advertised on Kingsnake.. I've yet to see one with pyramiding. There was an article in Reptiles mag. [ June '02 - Carl remembers the COVER redfoot ] by Richard Cary Paull.. that shows pyramided redfoots in the wild on an almost "desert" South Carribean island.
I started this topic to show [ with chronological picture documentation ] how it is possible to raise a hatchling that is not "pyramided or obese". Nothing more.. nothing less.
Am I upset or unhappy with Carl or Shawn or anybody? How or why would I be.. it really would be stupid if I were. Who has time for unforgiveness? - not me.
Terry K
shawngt2 said:I would also like to add that in the beginning of my ownership I asked you why it wasn't OK to let them eat greens until they walked away from they're bowl and you said "you're on your own". Don't you remember that Terry? That's what began our first argument and ultimately led to a phone conversation. And also a month ago I asked you the same question again after I also told you that I was feeding after your diet and you gave me the same answer (keep them hungry!). So now you're saying if you're feeding the right foods that it is now ok to let them eat until they walk away? This is clearly a contradiction in my mind and there is nothing you can say to back peddle out of that one, I'm sorry.
cdmay said:Not taking issue.
But, there are many of us who acheive similar results without making absolute statements about diets or how much they should or should not be fed.
I know of, or have known of, numerous keepers and breeders who feed their animals all they want and get 'perfect' growth from their animals.
These folks have known about humidity and a good diet for decades and have got good results for many years. In addition, these guys (like myself) get very nearly 100% fertility and hatching from eggs their adults produce. Most of these adults have been raised from small juveniles...with typically very nice and natural appearing shells.
For me, the issue is humidity (which you have learned of) and diet.
But humidity is by far the important factor if the diet is reasonable.
By reasonable I mean not overloaded with fats, meats or commercially prepared 'chows'. I have never had an issue with feeding ad lib as long as the diet is high in fiber and has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio and is otherwise balanced.
Overfeeding is bad...IF you are feeding crap or are really overdoing it.
But none of the animals featured in this post show signs of poor manangement in any way. Pointing out some minor variation and saying "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" is nonsense and misleading.
Redfoot NERD said:This is not about who has the best.. or perfect.. or only caresheet - which I have never claimed! There is no ego or emotion involved.. so I respectfully ask and expect the same.
terryo said:Well, on a lighter note, (?). This is Izzy, who has been raised on Terry's caresheets since she was 1 month old. (besides my Redfoot, of course)
I swear...it's the truth.