Well, I am going the expensive route and with my dad's help we are building the tort table with radiant heat and tile! (on the bottom and sides) The sides are going to be secured enough so the tile won't have a issue with cracking, I think we are going to use color matched silicone (to the tile) inbetween the tiles. I think they are slate tiles? Anyhow, this product, with a thermostat, is going to be installed under the tile: http://www.warmzone.com/heated-floor-mats-details.php It was about $250 and the people that sold it to us gave us the tile for free, along with the "thinset" and silicone. My question is, with a little cover over the top of the 6 foot by 3 foot enclosure, do you guys think this way of heating will heat the entire enclosure so that I will not need another heat source? Of course it will be waterproof and some sort of way to introduce humidity will be provided. This thing has a thermostat, you can adjust the temps from 60 something to 99 I think, I am not sure of the actual temps. This is going to be for a redfoot. Thanks!
Radiant heating and tile in tort table
- Thread starter XxDarkEuphoriaxX
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How much of the encloure are you puting the mat they will need a place to get off of it you will still need a basking spot how big are your tort's
That's an awesome way to go! I plan on doing exactly the same thing with my next enclosure.
I expect that should be enough to establish your base temp of around 80 degrees in a covered enclosure. Without the use of multiple "zones" and thermostats it won't establish a gradient however. As it warms the substrate that should go a long ways towards helping to prevent shell rot as well. (My theory on shell rot is that it comes from a tort laying on too cold and damp a substrate, that of course happens from excessive wetting in order to bring up the humidity).
I would still establish a basking hot spot at one end with a MVB, Halogen, CHE, or some combination there of shining on a piece of slate, tile or flat rock. You want that basking spot to be around 90. Of course I would place the thermostat for the substrate heater at the other end. In that way you can establish a gradient from 90-80 in the enclosure.
Does that all make sense?
I expect that should be enough to establish your base temp of around 80 degrees in a covered enclosure. Without the use of multiple "zones" and thermostats it won't establish a gradient however. As it warms the substrate that should go a long ways towards helping to prevent shell rot as well. (My theory on shell rot is that it comes from a tort laying on too cold and damp a substrate, that of course happens from excessive wetting in order to bring up the humidity).
I would still establish a basking hot spot at one end with a MVB, Halogen, CHE, or some combination there of shining on a piece of slate, tile or flat rock. You want that basking spot to be around 90. Of course I would place the thermostat for the substrate heater at the other end. In that way you can establish a gradient from 90-80 in the enclosure.
Does that all make sense?
so I planned on having this radiant heating on 100% of the enclosure's bottom, will that be a problem? So I need a actual "basking" spot still, even if the temp is in the 80's? I don't plan on really cranking up the heating mat because I don't want the tort to get burned from the bottom or anything, but I doubt that will happen, I guess I will just have to see how warm the mat actually gets etc. once installed. thx
That's pretty much it, this is new territory. As radiant heating is designed to adequately heat an entire room, it SHOULD be capable of maintaining the ambient temps in an enclosure, but MAY get too warm for the undersides of the torts in the process. (If it was to say have to heat the substrate to 100 to maintain 81 degrees or so air temp)
The basking spots are still necessary to allow the tortoise to raise there internal temps for elevated activity levels or digestion when needed.
I use basking spot useage to set my ambient levels. If I notice the torts never basking and hiding in the cool end, I lower ambient temps, if the torts spend alot of time basking I raise ambient temps. Mine seem to like about 82 degrees.
The basking spots are still necessary to allow the tortoise to raise there internal temps for elevated activity levels or digestion when needed.
I use basking spot useage to set my ambient levels. If I notice the torts never basking and hiding in the cool end, I lower ambient temps, if the torts spend alot of time basking I raise ambient temps. Mine seem to like about 82 degrees.
ok, here are some updated pics. going to have (2) flourescent aquarium tubes for light, one of them might be the low output UVB, and then a "powerglow" aquarium normal output flourescent tube, radiant heating, and a mercury vapor bulb on one end (opposite of the built in hide) see the pix. tile isn't in yet, but waterproofing material etc. is. the whole exterior is oak, it hasn't been stained yet. 
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Looking sharp!
If you already have them they're fine, but IMHO opinion I'd save the money and buy normal hardware store lamps over pet store ones (aside from the MVB of course)
My favorites are T-12 size Daylight Deluxe.
I can't wait to see this thing all done.
Your sides seem a little shallow to me, but it might just be an illusion, or were you planning on putting plex on the sides as well ?
This is making me want to start a new enclosure even more than I already was.
If you already have them they're fine, but IMHO opinion I'd save the money and buy normal hardware store lamps over pet store ones (aside from the MVB of course)
My favorites are T-12 size Daylight Deluxe.
I can't wait to see this thing all done.
Your sides seem a little shallow to me, but it might just be an illusion, or were you planning on putting plex on the sides as well ?
This is making me want to start a new enclosure even more than I already was.
Are we not talking about redfoot tortoises here?
Come on you guys.... when the ambient temps are in the low to mid 80's.... you may find out that they seldom if ever bask. Be careful of higher temps for redfoot tortoises.. especially from below. Doesn't the heat come from the sun above?
For the past 12+ years my redfoots have thrived inside during winter months.. and indeed do breed when the males are present.. with very little lighting at all! ONE 24" flor. tube [ not UVB ] in the 8' ( for the Brazilians ) and 20' ( for the Northerns ) tables
Yes there are always exceptions and extremes - and you can be sure that Mark will be by to contradict the above in some way
NERD.
Come on you guys.... when the ambient temps are in the low to mid 80's.... you may find out that they seldom if ever bask. Be careful of higher temps for redfoot tortoises.. especially from below. Doesn't the heat come from the sun above?
For the past 12+ years my redfoots have thrived inside during winter months.. and indeed do breed when the males are present.. with very little lighting at all! ONE 24" flor. tube [ not UVB ] in the 8' ( for the Brazilians ) and 20' ( for the Northerns ) tables
Yes there are always exceptions and extremes - and you can be sure that Mark will be by to contradict the above in some way
NERD.
yes I already got a hardware shop light instead of a pet store one, it was about $18. Where do you get the daylight deluxe at? I am def. going to have a MVB if anything just to be on the "safe side." And I was thinking about having one of my normal tubes a lower output UVB and the other one an normal aquarium bulb. If I have a MVB on one side is there a need to have one of the florescents a low output UVB? And I am going with the thing that indoor light can't possibly be as bright as the shade outdoors therefore you can't really "overlight" a indoor tank, well I guess you can but I am not going to make the light dim or anything.
I know Terry, here we go reinventing the wheel, some of us can't help it I guess. In my case my animals have to spend at least 9 months of the year inside , so I need to find ways to make my inside as much like the summer outside as I can.
as to belly heat.... last I checked the moon didn't put out much heat
Dark, With the MVB you won't really need another UVB lamp. As Terry pointed out he uses no UVB lamps at all for his redfoots, many keepers don't. The 2.0 Reptile lamps aren't really supposed to put out much more UV than a normal lamp.
I get my Daylight Deluxe at Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Any lamp with around 2000 lumens and 84+ or so CRI should be a good full-spectrum lamp. The higher the better on the CRI if the manufacturer is being honest. If it says something to the effect of 3000 lumens and 90+, they're probably lying. Full spectrum lamps can't produce that much "brightness", they appear much dimmer than newer "tri-chromatic" lamps. (I should specify, yes I really think its important to give Tortoises full-spectrum lighting)
It occurs to me I should clear some possible confusion as well that other readers may get when going over this thread.
With the undertile type heating system that DarkEuphoria is using, the temperature sensor is placed under the tile as well. That thermostat controls the temperature of the tile not the air. That prevents the tile from becoming overly warm and burning feet in the case of humans, or undersides in the case of tortoises. It also prevents overheating of the cables causing a malfunction.
The point of using this method is to prevent clammy, cold substrates caused by the constant evaporation of moisture off the substrate. If the room containing the enclosure is colder than air inside the enclosure (as is the case in most homes) this can allow the substrate to cool off to below room temperatures, making it VERY cold for the tortoise.
as to belly heat.... last I checked the moon didn't put out much heat
Dark, With the MVB you won't really need another UVB lamp. As Terry pointed out he uses no UVB lamps at all for his redfoots, many keepers don't. The 2.0 Reptile lamps aren't really supposed to put out much more UV than a normal lamp.
I get my Daylight Deluxe at Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Any lamp with around 2000 lumens and 84+ or so CRI should be a good full-spectrum lamp. The higher the better on the CRI if the manufacturer is being honest. If it says something to the effect of 3000 lumens and 90+, they're probably lying. Full spectrum lamps can't produce that much "brightness", they appear much dimmer than newer "tri-chromatic" lamps. (I should specify, yes I really think its important to give Tortoises full-spectrum lighting)
It occurs to me I should clear some possible confusion as well that other readers may get when going over this thread.
With the undertile type heating system that DarkEuphoria is using, the temperature sensor is placed under the tile as well. That thermostat controls the temperature of the tile not the air. That prevents the tile from becoming overly warm and burning feet in the case of humans, or undersides in the case of tortoises. It also prevents overheating of the cables causing a malfunction.
The point of using this method is to prevent clammy, cold substrates caused by the constant evaporation of moisture off the substrate. If the room containing the enclosure is colder than air inside the enclosure (as is the case in most homes) this can allow the substrate to cool off to below room temperatures, making it VERY cold for the tortoise.
I have 2 quick questions:
When you're using something like radiant heating under tile to keep the substrate warm, you're going to need to fuss over the substrate more won't you? I mean that you'll need to constantly be checking it to make sure it's moist right since it will dry out faster.
and #2
Terry, what do you use to heat? Several CHE over the length of the table or a 1 CHE hot spot?
When you're using something like radiant heating under tile to keep the substrate warm, you're going to need to fuss over the substrate more won't you? I mean that you'll need to constantly be checking it to make sure it's moist right since it will dry out faster.
and #2
Terry, what do you use to heat? Several CHE over the length of the table or a 1 CHE hot spot?
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
If the whole floor is covered by these panels how/where do the tortoises go to cool off? If the whole floor is covered by these panels, why would the tortoise want/need to go bask? I personally see sick tortoises on the way. I don't mean any disrespect and I am not trying to be mean, but it just doesn't seem right. Tortoises should be heated from above. They need to thermoregulate. They get under the sun to warm up then they go to a cool spot to cool off.
So am I not understanding something here? Would you mind explaining this to me so I can understand? It just seems to me that *most* keepers for a lot of years do things a certain way because they work.
I don't keep Redfoots but I do keep several different species and I know that Redfoots live on the forest floor and only get a low dose of UVB. So I think a MVB is going to be too much UVB/light for them. I would understand the whole set up if the radiant panels were just on one end or just covering half of the habitat. But my main concern is the seeming lack of opportunity to thermoregulate...and too much light for a Redfoot who needs a dimmer light gradient...
So am I not understanding something here? Would you mind explaining this to me so I can understand? It just seems to me that *most* keepers for a lot of years do things a certain way because they work.
I don't keep Redfoots but I do keep several different species and I know that Redfoots live on the forest floor and only get a low dose of UVB. So I think a MVB is going to be too much UVB/light for them. I would understand the whole set up if the radiant panels were just on one end or just covering half of the habitat. But my main concern is the seeming lack of opportunity to thermoregulate...and too much light for a Redfoot who needs a dimmer light gradient...
I would like more input on this too. I could put the radiant heat only on the habitat area and not in the hide.This would make the hide cold and moist, or cold and dry depending on how much it gets misted etc. I would have the radiant heating at a low low level, only enough to keep the substrate warm, and not cold. Not so warm that it is like heating from below. And I could also skip the MVB and just do one normal output flourescent, and one 5.0 UVB flourescent tube. But I would still need a hotspot, right? So why not use the mercury vapor as a hotspot and uvb all in one? And just go with two "normal" fluorescent tubes... so confusing what to do!
The reason people are steering you away from the MVB is because it will provide too much UVB. These are the bulbs used for desert torts with high UVB needs, but you have a forest tort with a significantly lower UVB need.
You can use any sort of heat projector which mean a CHE, blacklight, heat bulb, etc for heat and then a different UVB providing bulb or like Nerd, you can skip it altogether. The UVB provides the tort with a way to produce D3, which redfoots can get from their protein.
You can use any sort of heat projector which mean a CHE, blacklight, heat bulb, etc for heat and then a different UVB providing bulb or like Nerd, you can skip it altogether. The UVB provides the tort with a way to produce D3, which redfoots can get from their protein.
Personally, I LIKE the idea. Sending warmth up through the moist substrate will cause the air to be more humid. I use a mylar seedling heat strip under one end of my baby box turtle habitat. It doesn't get hotter than 80 degrees. When you place your hand on the substrate you can barely feel the warmth, but if you dig down a bit it becomes warmer.
WELL then I think I am going to use one 5.0 UVB flourescent, and one "normal daylight full spectrum" bulb(s) with a ceramic heat emitter then! I don't want to over do the UVB if that is possible... (is it possible?)
O. K. -----
All of my redfoots are in a bldg. that is heated with small ceramic heaters.. so the ambient temperature is warm. I don't have one thermometer in there so I have no idea what the ambient temperature is.
There is no warm side or cold side.. no hot side or cool side.. it's just warm in the building! I'm sure there are spots in the different tables and tubs that are warmer than others.. and I have the heaters closest to the smaller ones ( young hatchlings and yearlings, etc. ) so they are probly the warmest ones.
I also run a "warm-air" humidifier that is directed towards the tropical hibiscus ( in one corner of the building ).. which also aids in the ambient humidity.
When the outside temps are low 40's or less.. it takes about a minute to walk out my back door to the building.. my glasses immediately fog when I open the door to the building --- it's that warm and humid!
Soooo.. if need be.. insulate their enclosure from the other temperature variables of the surroundings - FIRST!!! Then is when it will be much easier to maintain the needed ambient temps and humidity.
The key is maintaining consistent ambient temps thru-out their little micro-climate. [ I'm not going to say it again! ]
If need be virtually seal [ and insulate ] their enclosure to keep the ambient heat and humidity IN! This nonsense about allowing for cross-ventilation is nonsense.. that's just creating a draft which is what is probly causing a great deal of the RI, etc. with these redfoots. You will be lifting the lid to feed and spray them at least once daily.... so they won't sufficate! Ever wonder about the fact that an incubator is virtually sealed "air-tight"?
How this got off on lighting I don't know.. but you are not doing them any good by lighting more than 25% of the entire enclosure - one end! And that light should not give off any measureable heat because it is turned off half of the time anyway.
Yes balboa .... why are so many trying to re-invent the wheel when you'all have barely driven this cart a mile down the road... at best??? And mine are inside at least 6 - 7 months out of the year too!
Dark.. the needed D3 [ not UVB.. which is not the ONLY source ] comes mainly from the (animal) protein part of their diet. UVB is provided by sunshine and lights(?). Redfoots prefer their D3 source to be from what they eat. What I'm saying is some tortoises acquire the needed D3 from diet.. and some acquire D3 from UVB - sunshine or lights.
Has anyone learned anything? I hope this helps answer the questions asked in this thread...
NERD
All of my redfoots are in a bldg. that is heated with small ceramic heaters.. so the ambient temperature is warm. I don't have one thermometer in there so I have no idea what the ambient temperature is.
There is no warm side or cold side.. no hot side or cool side.. it's just warm in the building! I'm sure there are spots in the different tables and tubs that are warmer than others.. and I have the heaters closest to the smaller ones ( young hatchlings and yearlings, etc. ) so they are probly the warmest ones.
I also run a "warm-air" humidifier that is directed towards the tropical hibiscus ( in one corner of the building ).. which also aids in the ambient humidity.
When the outside temps are low 40's or less.. it takes about a minute to walk out my back door to the building.. my glasses immediately fog when I open the door to the building --- it's that warm and humid!
Soooo.. if need be.. insulate their enclosure from the other temperature variables of the surroundings - FIRST!!! Then is when it will be much easier to maintain the needed ambient temps and humidity.
The key is maintaining consistent ambient temps thru-out their little micro-climate. [ I'm not going to say it again! ]
If need be virtually seal [ and insulate ] their enclosure to keep the ambient heat and humidity IN! This nonsense about allowing for cross-ventilation is nonsense.. that's just creating a draft which is what is probly causing a great deal of the RI, etc. with these redfoots. You will be lifting the lid to feed and spray them at least once daily.... so they won't sufficate! Ever wonder about the fact that an incubator is virtually sealed "air-tight"?
How this got off on lighting I don't know.. but you are not doing them any good by lighting more than 25% of the entire enclosure - one end! And that light should not give off any measureable heat because it is turned off half of the time anyway.
Yes balboa .... why are so many trying to re-invent the wheel when you'all have barely driven this cart a mile down the road... at best??? And mine are inside at least 6 - 7 months out of the year too!
Dark.. the needed D3 [ not UVB.. which is not the ONLY source ] comes mainly from the (animal) protein part of their diet. UVB is provided by sunshine and lights(?). Redfoots prefer their D3 source to be from what they eat. What I'm saying is some tortoises acquire the needed D3 from diet.. and some acquire D3 from UVB - sunshine or lights.
Has anyone learned anything? I hope this helps answer the questions asked in this thread...
NERD
I grow weary sometimes.
THIS IS NOT A HOT ROCK PEOPLE. This is a UL LISTED piece of electrical equipment designed to make warm floors. It MUST be used with a THERMOSTAT.
This is the the single safest, most effective, and efficient way to heat a space.
This is being used to heat a small enclosure in a room of normal human habitation.
It may very well NOT provide enough heat to adequately heat the enclosure depending on other parameters.
As long as the thermostat is set at a SAFE temperature it will never (barring malfunction) get the tortoise so hot they "need a cool escape". (as to malfunction, I'll bet money on more CHEs burning down houses than correctly installed in floor radiant heating per useage). I've tried to drop hints now and again that how some folks are doing things around here is dangerous. maybe I need to be more blunt.
If some jerk was to come along and set the in-floor-heat thermostat to max temp (maybe 100 degrees, not usually warmer) this type of system might be able to overheat a tort, in conjunction with other heat sources. This is to the best of my knowledge new territory. Nobody has ever tried to use such a sensible approach to enclosure heating before.
All those things considered, it may be sensible to leave a section without in floor heating, to proved an "escape".
Personally I do provide a bask, and my torts do use it occasionally, but not much, and never long. I consider this ideal.
Darkeuphoria, if you're having second thoughts that's fine, do what you want and are comfortable with. This is all about applying common sense and your own technical know-how to build your vision of the best enclosure you can for your tortoise.
THIS IS NOT A HOT ROCK PEOPLE. This is a UL LISTED piece of electrical equipment designed to make warm floors. It MUST be used with a THERMOSTAT.
This is the the single safest, most effective, and efficient way to heat a space.
This is being used to heat a small enclosure in a room of normal human habitation.
It may very well NOT provide enough heat to adequately heat the enclosure depending on other parameters.
As long as the thermostat is set at a SAFE temperature it will never (barring malfunction) get the tortoise so hot they "need a cool escape". (as to malfunction, I'll bet money on more CHEs burning down houses than correctly installed in floor radiant heating per useage). I've tried to drop hints now and again that how some folks are doing things around here is dangerous. maybe I need to be more blunt.
If some jerk was to come along and set the in-floor-heat thermostat to max temp (maybe 100 degrees, not usually warmer) this type of system might be able to overheat a tort, in conjunction with other heat sources. This is to the best of my knowledge new territory. Nobody has ever tried to use such a sensible approach to enclosure heating before.
All those things considered, it may be sensible to leave a section without in floor heating, to proved an "escape".
Personally I do provide a bask, and my torts do use it occasionally, but not much, and never long. I consider this ideal.
Darkeuphoria, if you're having second thoughts that's fine, do what you want and are comfortable with. This is all about applying common sense and your own technical know-how to build your vision of the best enclosure you can for your tortoise.
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