Pyrmiding

[Cleopatra 2020]

Not sure what I can do to get her to quit pyramiding her humidity is always in the high 80s to mid-90s.... and the temperatures always range between mid 80s - 90.. and her basking tile between 90 - 94.... he eats a lot everyday I feed her clover ,weeds, grass, hibiscus leaves, and grape leaves sprinkled with moringa and oat straw plantain and nettle... she poops mostly everyday except for the last couple of days she hasn't which kind of worries me because I've found Orchard bark in her poop so I've been giving her Cactus pad the last couple days to act like a laxative to help her go... Rosie is a 11 and a half month old leopard and tips in at 368g.... I posted the second picture because she was yawning and is such a cutie...??

 

[Tom]

Not sure what I can do to get her to quit pyramiding her humidity is always in the high 80s to mid-90s.... and the temperatures always range between mid 80s - 90.. and her basking tile between 90 - 94.... he eats a lot everyday I feed her clover ,weeds, grass, hibiscus leaves, and grape leaves sprinkled with moringa and oat straw plantain and nettle... she poops mostly everyday except for the last couple of days she hasn't which kind of worries me because I've found Orchard bark in her poop so I've been giving her Cactus pad the last couple days to act like a laxative to help her go... Rosie is a 11 and a half month old leopard and tips in at 368g.... I posted the second picture because she was yawning and is such a cutie...??View attachment 314180View attachment 314181

What type of basking lamp?
UV? What type of bulb, how close, how many hours per day?
Do you spray the carapace?

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

What type of basking lamp?
UV? What type of bulb, how close, how many hours per day?
Do you spray the carapace?

I got the mini flood bulb incandescent she basks under that daily it runs from 7 in the morning to 6:30 at night the basking bulb is probably 16 to 18 in away from her her UVB bulb which is the 5.0 high output which is about 18 to 20 inches away and that one usually only runs for 2 to 4 hours in the morning I gave her the mineral every Monday and I give her her calcium powder on Fridays both with mazuri also she has an LED that's on all day which I turn off about 5 so then it's just the Basking light which I dim a little.. once that kicks off at 6:30 her c h e takes over which is set at 86° because of the ambient temperature in the house being around 70 her cool spots in her enclosure get down to 83 and humidity is usually around 94 on average at night and I've only recently started spraying her shell at least once a day.

 

[Jon G.]

Pyramiding in tortoises is complex subject that often comes up in this forum, books, and periodicals. If you search on this topic for related threads in this forum you will find a number of posts. The actual cause(s) of pyramiding have been debated for many years. The following is a summary of some of the common explanations I have come across that make sense, along with some thoughts specifically related to, and in the context of, my own experience with leopard tortoises:

Humidity is a very common theme with a general consensus that one of the main causes of pyramiding is inadequate and inconsistent humidity. This correlates with my experience with a couple of additional specific observations. Some tortoise experts recommend closed environments with the proper temperature/environmental conditions that promote high humidity. In my opinion this is a good recommendation but can be difficult to implement in practical way that doesn't make cleaning and access a more challenging. In my experience with hatchling leopard tortoises in smaller tub type enclosures, I have found that the combination of moist coconut coir approximately a 2" depth in conjunction with a humidity hide/cave works well, even with an open top container in an air conditioned indoor space. The key is to keep the environment warm and humid enough which requires the constant addition of water. It should be noted that in addition to basking lights I provide heat from the bottom using a heat pad under the enclosure on one end. Not many substrates work well for this. Some people don't like the coconut coir because the small particles tend to stick to things when wet. I have found this to be a minor inconvenience and it keeps my hatchlings clean, is naturally absorbent, makes it easy to pick up droppings and uneaten food, and does not mold as readily as some other substrates. It is very easy to rinse off and I have never had any problem with it being ingested even though some gets on the food. I let the top dry out slightly for a day or two and use that as an indicator of when I need to add water. This is starting to sound like an advertisement for coconut coir.

I think a common problem is that one can start out with a nice humid substrate and proper environmental and then not add enough moisture to the substrate to maintain adequate humidity. Shallow depths of coarse substrates are difficult to keep moist. One additional thought/opinion is that misting is not a good way to maintain humidity for tortoises in an open environment. I don't think enough moisture can generally added to the substrate by misting from the top, and can result in evaporative cooling which is not good. Warm high-humidity is good. Cool sporadic humidity in an otherwise dry environment is bad . Another common them is that tortoises are masters of finding the appropriate microclimates so a range of humidity and temperatures should be provided in any given habitat to the extent possible.

Diet is another factor that I believe contributes to pyramiding or other shell development problems and is a complex subject. Low dietary calcium and/or inadequate UV light are common causes metabolic bone disease that can result in significant shell deformation in all turtles and tortoises. Given the amount of information (i.e. forums like this), equipment, and tortoise diets/supplements available, there is really no excuse for this. If the classic signs of MBD are observed (depressed rear of carapace in conjunction with significant pyramiding), the diet and environment should be corrected immediately.

In general, captive tortoises tend to get a much higher quantity and quality of high-calorie/lower-fiber diet than tortoises in the wild. Even the commonly recommended greens and high quality tortoise diets provide a lot more nutrition than most tortoises would ever have access to in the wild. Commercial diets have improved significantly over the last few years and there are some new vendors (at least new to me) out there that can supply natural food and even seeds for planting your own if so inclined (search the other posts). The challenge is that it is almost impossible to replicate the natural diet and seasonal environmental conditions that result in the perfect smooth shell growth often seen in old wild tortoises. One thing I have found is that a consistent diet of good quality food fed at regular intervals results in smoother shell growth in my leopard tortoise hatchlings. I also try to avoid any type of sugary fruits or high starch vegetables for my hatchlings. These types of food are not ideal for a number of reasons. I get that this is hard to resist because they love treats so much and it is fun to see them enthusiastically gobble them down or practically stand on their back legs to get them. I have seen hatchlings that I gave or sold to others kept in an open indoor environment grow very quickly, spoiled by daily feeding of good quality food and even treats, that had amazingly smooth shells at several years old. I came to the conclusion that it was the consistent quantity of food fed continuously that may have been the reason for the uniform growth. Another personal observation is that the early months and years of development may have an impact on long term pyramiding. Tortoises that start out nice and smooth tend to stay smooth.

Individual Variation, Species Variation, and Genetics. I'm not going to go very deep into this because these are my opinions based on personal experience and don't want take too much of a drubbing by other experts on this forum. In my personal experience, again with leopard tortoises over 25 years, I have seen significant individual variation between tortoises of the same species, between different species, and even within a group of the same tortoises all other things being equal. I have a small colony of three leopard tortoises so this cannot be considered a statistically significant sample, however, within this group all three were acquired from different breeders at nearly the same time and age and were raised together over 25 years in the exact same environment and fed the exact same diet (not perfect in the first few years as I have learned a lot over the last couple of decades). My two females show moderate pyramiding while my male is very smooth comparatively. Another observation is that leopard tortoises seem to have a tendency to develop more pyramiding than some of the others and is even seen in some wild specimens. If you look at lots of images of different captive tortoises of different species, some seem to be more prone to pyramiding than others.

All that said, minimal pyramiding should be a goal for all of us tortoise enthusiasts but I don't think a little pyramiding in captive bred/raised tortoises is anything to be too ashamed of if the tortoise is otherwise healthy and provided the proper care, environment, and diet.

 

[Tom]

I got the mini flood bulb incandescent she basks under that daily it runs from 7 in the morning to 6:30 at night the basking bulb is probably 16 to 18 in away from her her UVB bulb which is the 5.0 high output which is about 18 to 20 inches away and that one usually only runs for 2 to 4 hours in the morning I gave her the mineral every Monday and I give her her calcium powder on Fridays both with mazuri also she has an LED that's on all day which I turn off about 5 so then it's just the Basking light which I dim a little.. once that kicks off at 6:30 her c h e takes over which is set at 86° because of the ambient temperature in the house being around 70 her cool spots in her enclosure get down to 83 and humidity is usually around 94 on average at night and I've only recently started spraying her shell at least once a day.

Mini flood bulb? Can we see a pic? How much time does the tortoise bask under it daily?

This is a closed chamber enclosure, right?

 

[Jon G.]

Cleopatra,

I realized that my previous post was way too wordy/preachy, repeated the obvious to experienced tortoise keepers, and it was hard to pull out any specific recommendations to try. I guess I was trying to target less experienced owners who hadn't seen or read much on pyramiding and I'm interested in what others have observed on the subject...

Anyway, it sounds to me like you are doing a good job with all of the fundamental tortoise husbandry things. A couple of things you could potentially try are changing the substrate to something that retains moisture a little better and increasing the percentage of boring grassland tortoise food. There are many options available. A couple I like that are inexpensive and readily available are Mazuri LS (low starch) or ZooMed Grassland tortoise diet. You mentioned that you feed Mazuri but not which type. In my opinion, the LS is much better than the standard Mazuri tortoise diet. My hatchling and juveniles get about 50% boring stuff.

As I mentioned above, a little pyramiding in captive bred leopard tortoises is not unusual. Sometimes it straightens itself out after a few years. Nice looking tortoise!

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

Mini flood bulb? Can we see a pic? How much time does the tortoise bask under it daily?

This is a closed chamber enclosure, right?

Yes its enclosed with about 3- 4inches of orchard bark which I missed a couple times a day at least and there's probably a quarter inch of water accumulated at the bottom of it which I mix it up with both hands every other day or so to spread out the humidity and never drops below mid to low 80s ever but it's mostly in the high 80s and low to mid 90s especially at night when her temperature drops to about 84 or 83 the humidity is around 94% when I went to get the flood bulb I made sure it was an incandescent I'll take a picture of it when I get home and post it on here and like I said her diet is the same all the time with the variation of dry additives like moringa, plantain, nettle, oat straw, and raspberry leaves and mostly her regular diet is leaves weeds and grass right now I have some collards popping up in the garden so she'll get to have that as a treat soon which I said heard that in the beginning when she was only 3 months old she has been growing like crazy these last 2 months going from 20g a month to 50g a month she'll be hitting the 400g Mark here in the next week or two.... she finally pooped today after going a couple days without but usually she poops every day either in her soak water in the morning before I feed her or on her substrate eats like a pig everyday she might not eat once a week or even once every two weeks but the majority of the time she eats all of it.....lol

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

Mini flood bulb? Can we see a pic? How much time does the tortoise bask under it daily?

This is a closed chamber enclosure, right?

@Tom

Mini flood bulb? Can we see a pic? How much time does the tortoise bask under it daily?

This is a closed chamber enclosure, right?

@Tom ?

 

[Tom]

I was waiting for a pic of your bulb and the wattage...

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity and the wrong substrate, or from keeping them outside all day, or it can happen in a closed chamber with high humidity if the wrong bulbs are used, which would then dry out the carapace too much.

Me and several others are constantly trying to learn more and solve this mystery. I typically raise torts from hatchlings in groups. In species prone to pyramiding, I still get 10-20% of the babies showing some mild pyramiding like yours, even though every thing "seems" perfect, and their siblings in the same enclosure turn out perfectly. Many theories are currently being tested. Too much indoor UV, more plants and cover to hide under, less desiccating basking bulbs, more carapace spraying, hotter ambient temps to discourage basking, etc...

I post new things here on the forum as I learn them and test theories. In the mean time, try any or all of the above and see is something makes a difference in your tortoise. Your tortoise looks great, and I wouldn't worry too much about the minor pyramiding you are seeing. Some of that might be from before you even got the tortoise. Sounds like you are doing everything perfectly.

 

[Sterant]

I concur with Tom that the likely suspect here is lighting and/or time spent basking. If you were to put a hygrometer under the basking lamp you will probably see numbers like 25 or 30% . I had this problem recently with a Chersina baby. I solved it by raising my fluorescent light fixture and providing a lot of plants to hide under. I don’t use basking lamps for babies but Tom’s research suggests leopards do better with basking lamps so follow his advice there.

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

I was waiting for a pic of your bulb and the wattage...

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity and the wrong substrate, or from keeping them outside all day, or it can happen in a closed chamber with high humidity if the wrong bulbs are used, which would then dry out the carapace too much.

Me and several others are constantly trying to learn more and solve this mystery. I typically raise torts from hatchlings in groups. In species prone to pyramiding, I still get 10-20% of the babies showing some mild pyramiding like yours, even though every thing "seems" perfect, and their siblings in the same enclosure turn out perfectly. Many theories are currently being tested. Too much indoor UV, more plants and cover to hide under, less desiccating basking bulbs, more carapace spraying, hotter ambient temps to discourage basking, etc...

I post new things here on the forum as I learn them and test theories. In the mean time, try any or all of the above and see is something makes a difference in your tortoise. Your tortoise looks great, and I wouldn't worry too much about the minor pyramiding you are seeing. Some of that might be from before you even got the tortoise. Sounds like you are doing everything perfectly.

That's making me think it's the lighting then because your humidity is never below mid-80s but generally higher so yeah definitely seems like it could be the lighting sorry about the picture I got a little busy last night I will definitely get one on this thread thank you Tom

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

I concur with Tom that the likely suspect here is lighting and/or time spent basking. If you were to put a hygrometer under the basking lamp you will probably see numbers like 25 or 30% . I had this problem recently with a Chersina baby. I solved it by raising my fluorescent light fixture and providing a lot of plants to hide under. I don’t use basking lamps for babies but Tom’s research suggests leopards do better with basking lamps so follow his advice there.

Yep she loves to bask and I'm thinking that might be the culprit

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

I was waiting for a pic of your bulb and the wattage...

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can be low humidity and the wrong substrate, or from keeping them outside all day, or it can happen in a closed chamber with high humidity if the wrong bulbs are used, which would then dry out the carapace too much.

Me and several others are constantly trying to learn more and solve this mystery. I typically raise torts from hatchlings in groups. In species prone to pyramiding, I still get 10-20% of the babies showing some mild pyramiding like yours, even though every thing "seems" perfect, and their siblings in the same enclosure turn out perfectly. Many theories are currently being tested. Too much indoor UV, more plants and cover to hide under, less desiccating basking bulbs, more carapace spraying, hotter ambient temps to discourage basking, etc...

I post new things here on the forum as I learn them and test theories. In the mean time, try any or all of the above and see is something makes a difference in your tortoise. Your tortoise looks great, and I wouldn't worry too much about the minor pyramiding you are seeing. Some of that might be from before you even got the tortoise. Sounds like you are doing everything perfectly.

Hey Tom do you know where to get those 12% fluorescent bulbs or that brand that is consistent with their percentage of UV output? I know I read it in a post on here before but I can't remember what brand they were they were available online

 

[Tom]

Hey Tom do you know where to get those 12% fluorescent bulbs or that brand that is consistent with their percentage of UV output? I know I read it in a post on here before but I can't remember what brand they were they were available online

The brand is Arcadia and they can be bought from our own @Markw84. If you get one, I suggest mounting it around 18 inches above the tortoise, and only running it on a timer for 1-2 hours mid day.

That's making me think it's the lighting then because your humidity is never below mid-80s but generally higher so yeah definitely seems like it could be the lighting sorry about the picture I got a little busy last night I will definitely get one on this thread thank you Tom

Try raising the ambient temp up a bit during the day into the high 80s or low 90s and see if the tortoise basks less. We'll also take a look at your bulb when you get time to post a pic.

I just want to emphasize that your tortoise looks fantastic. Its always good to strive for perfection and make things as good as we possibly can, but you should not feel disappointed in any way about how your tortoise looks.

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

The brand is Arcadia and they can be bought from our own @Markw84. If you get one, I suggest mounting it around 18 inches above the tortoise, and only running it on a timer for 1-2 hours mid day.

Try raising the ambient temp up a bit during the day into the high 80s or low 90s and see if the tortoise basks less. We'll also take a look at your bulb when you get time to post a pic.

I just want to emphasize that your tortoise looks fantastic. Its always good to strive for perfection and make things as good as we possibly can, but you should not feel disappointed in any way about how your tortoise looks.

I'll try this again I just was getting ready to send and hit the back twice and long *** post I was ready to send you is gone... Ugh .... so anyway the distance from her che is around 11 in her basking light is around 12 in which means probably 10 in to the top of her shell and the UV light is around 16 inches her enclosure is 36in wide by 21 in deep and is around 15 and 1/2 in from the bottom of the lid to the top of the substrate.... this enclosure has been this way for her since day 1 on April 7th when I got her. She was 64. Grams she'll be a year in two more weeks and right now she weighed 368 last Sunday keeping track of her she gained 20 grams a month for the first few months and then started increasing and last I checked she's up to 50g a month the last couple months she eats like a pig everyday which I feed her pile as big as if not bigger than her shell size she really has been easy to care for which I was worried in the beginning after dealing with Cleo passing from hatchling syndrome I'm amazed at how long Cleo lived considering how very little she ate I guess I wasn't aware of how much they eat until I seen Rosie put it away day after day sorry to ramble so anyway I'm thinking the lighting definitely has to be raised which in her new enclosure I'm building I will make sure the distances are to your guys's specs the pictures down below show enclosure from the front a side angle and some inside cam shots as well...??

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

The brand is Arcadia and they can be bought from our own @Markw84. If you get one, I suggest mounting it around 18 inches above the tortoise, and only running it on a timer for 1-2 hours mid day.

Try raising the ambient temp up a bit during the day into the high 80s or low 90s and see if the tortoise basks less. We'll also take a look at your bulb when you get time to post a pic.

I just want to emphasize that your tortoise looks fantastic. Its always good to strive for perfection and make things as good as we possibly can, but you should not feel disappointed in any way about how your tortoise looks.

Also here's a picture of her new lid with her old original lid of her enclosure now which I switch to a half inch wooden lid so I could move the lights inside so you can see the difference from what she's in now to what she'll be moving into which I think she's going to really enjoys her walks now... LOL... the new enclosure is 150 gallon Rubbermaid water trough for horses it's like a 3' by 5' I'll post pictures when I get it done

 

[Tom]

Definitely time for a bigger enclosure.

Place your digital thermometer on top of a flat piece of 2x4 or a brick and lay it directly under your basking bulb to check the temps. Let it cook there for an hour or more. Since they don't bask under the CHE, that temperature or mounting distance isn't as important. The CHE should be off most of the day anyway since the basking bulb is on and heating up the enclosure.

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

Definitely time for a bigger enclosure.

Place your digital thermometer on top of a flat piece of 2x4 or a brick and lay it directly under your basking bulb to check the temps. Let it cook there for an hour or more. Since they don't bask under the CHE, that temperature or mounting distance isn't as important. The CHE should be off most of the day anyway since the basking bulb is on and heating up the enclosure.

I use a red dot temp gun I happen to have one of those since I do AC work... LOL... I check all the spots of the tile. As well as the substrate and everything pretty much including the top of her shell so the digital thermometer and humidity gauge is accurate for ambient camps at that end her she'll is always a couple degrees hotter than the tile I'm assuming since it's closer to the light

 

[Tom]

I use a red dot temp gun I happen to have one of those since I do AC work... LOL... I check all the spots of the tile. As well as the substrate and everything pretty much including the top of her shell so the digital thermometer and humidity gauge is accurate for ambient camps at that end her she'll is always a couple degrees hotter than the tile I'm assuming since it's closer to the lightView attachment 314363View attachment 314364

That bulb should be okay.

I like the infrared temp guns too, but I like to check temps using both methods. Just my preference.

 

[Cleopatra 2020]

That bulb should be okay.

I like the infrared temp guns too, but I like to check temps using both methods. Just my preference.

Well I certainly have a digital one as well as I could throw in there just to let it sit there for an hour or more like you said and see what we get