Pyramiding

[DAC8671]

Can pyramiding happen at any age of a sulcatas life? I'm always concerned that I may not be feeding him correctly and worry about this. Can pyramiding be treated? Is it uncomfortable to the tort? If diet IS changed, can pyramiding kill a tort?

Right now mine is healthy, but it's always on my mind.

 

[elegans]

This is usually a problem that starts when they are young. I have certainly seen tortoises that did suffer and die from the diet that resulted in the pyramiding. But as a side note I have taken in tortoises that had "radical" pyramiding that are growing out of it and are reproducing completely normal offspring. Once it is done that can't be changed, but new growth will be normal. Less of a worry as the animal grows older. If you have raised it well as a youngster there is no reason to think that you will mess it up later. Sounds like you are doing a great job. Best wishes Douglas

 

[katesgoey]

This is usually a problem that starts when they are young. I have certainly seen tortoises that did suffer and die from the diet that resulted in the pyramiding. But as a side note I have taken in tortoises that had "radical" pyramiding that are growing out of it and are reproducing completely normal offspring. Once it is done that can't be changed, but new growth will be normal. Less of a worry as the animal grows older. If you have raised it well as a youngster there is no reason to think that you will mess it up later. Sounds like you are doing a great job. Best wishes Douglas

Hi Douglas - I'm interested in understanding more about the "growing out of it" aspect since Tank was pyramided (although nothing like some I've seen) when I got him a year ago and seems to have "smoothed" out a bit. Could you explain a bit more the difference between the "once it is done...can't be changed" and the "growing out it" of pyramiding? Thanks.

 

[purpod]

I was always under the impression that pyramiding had something to do with the calcium requires not being in sync..?

Purpod

 

[Madkins007]

From what I have seen and read, pyramiding happens most easily when young (which makes sense- the shell is most changeable at that point), but can happen at any point.

It never goes away, but as the shell grows normally 'under' the pyramids, they become less apparent, sometimes seeming to 'spread out' some.

There is a LOT of debate over the causes. A guy named Fife did a study he published with Red-foots. he took two groups and raised them identically- but one with high humidity. The humid torts did not pyramid. Protein, calcium metabolism, etc. probably play roles as well. (Personally, I think there are different kinds of 'pyramiding' with different causes, possibly varying at least somewhat by species.)

 

[-EJ]

All chelonians pyramid... this is what leads to growth rings. The steep growing portion is most evident during the periods of growth where the temperature is cooler.

One day this concept will be grasped but I can't imagine why many can't see this.

Actually... I can see why this concept is difficult to take hold.

Anyway... if you look at where the actual growth of the shell takes place... it takes place at the margins of the scutes. These lines do not line up with the growth margins of the bone which are the sutures. Don't you think if pyramiding was a nutritional problem it would take place at the suture?

Needless to say... if you've got the environmental conditions right starting with heat then adding hydration... the nutritional component is not that important unless you are feeding a diet of Twinkies... that might cause a problem

Can pyramiding happen at any age of a sulcatas life? I'm always concerned that I may not be feeding him correctly and worry about this. Can pyramiding be treated? Is it uncomfortable to the tort? If diet IS changed, can pyramiding kill a tort?

Right now mine is healthy, but it's always on my mind.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Here we go..

Redfoots [ or any others ] don't "pyramid" in the wild. I know.. now we have to contend with interpretation. Mark was right.. " (Personally, I think there are different kinds of 'pyramiding' with different causes, possibly varying at least somewhat by species.)".

The different 'kinds' [ we'll call them "abnormalities" ] are the 'raising/stacking' { aka pyramiding } of the scutes.. or the 'separation' { aka overfeeding }.. or both.

I've not heard of anyone associating either of these with temperature variations [ temps change some/a lot in the wild.. based on locale/species ]- ie. Fife, various Zoos, Jon Coote ( Sept. '06 Reptiles mag. ) and self - all agree that the humidity is the important factor. Fife ( sulcata breeder ) told me on the phone that his sulcata's do defecate and urinate in their hides to maintain the humidity that they require.. not by accident! I have "CH" STARS that have 'pyramiding'.. and WC STARS that are perfectly smooth.. all acquired at the same 4" SCL.

The "separation" ( space between ) of the scutes is [ my experience ] from overfeeding. When fed too much the "spaces" appear. This was observed from WC adults that were perfectly smooth when acquired in the summer of '03.. and started to show "spaces" by the next summer - after kept in "closer" indoor quarters over-winter. The diet was changed from every other day to 2 days on.. 3 days off. The hatchlings have a tendency to grow too fast also.. a BIG issue when feeding 'any' hatchling. Being "Opportunistic" they eat to stay alive.. but if their 'living-space' is not big enough they aren't able to 'burn' the calories between feedings [ a pile of food in one spot! ]. They should never walk away with any food remaining! If they do.. cut that amount in half.

So.... all things the same:

Humidity influences smooth carapace growth.
Overfeeding causes "space between scutes" carapace growth.

NERD

 

[-EJ]

Redfoots definately do pyramid in the wild. Note the animals that are found in the Paraguyan Chaco.

The scutes do not stack... they grow upward instead of outward... they maintain the same thickness whether they grow up or out.

Due to the change in temperature in the wild the tortoise ends up with growth rings which are periods of extreme temperature or humidity for which the tortoise cannot compensate for by seeking a suitable microclimate.

Common sense will tell you that the tortoise will grow when fed if given the propertemperature. The areas of growth in the carapace is at the sutures for the bone and at the scute margins for the scutes.

Once again... if the temperatures are not correct... all other factors are moot... try it...vary nothing but the temperature... see what you get.

I'll talk to the fifes about that... I don't think they defficate in their hides for any other reason than that is where they spend a major portion of their time.

No argument with the spaces between the scutes... normal growth. If food is available... they grow... if it is not... they don't... provided... there is a proper temperature to maintain a matabolism to allow propper growth.

(imho)

Here we go..

Redfoots [ or any others ] don't "pyramid" in the wild. I know.. now we have to contend with interpretation. Mark was right.. " (Personally, I think there are different kinds of 'pyramiding' with different causes, possibly varying at least somewhat by species.)".

The different 'kinds' [ we'll call them "abnormalities" ] are the 'raising/stacking' { aka pyramiding } of the scutes.. or the 'separation' { aka overfeeding }.. or both.

I've not heard of anyone associating either of these with temperature variations [ temps change some/a lot in the wild.. based on locale/species ]- ie. Fife, various Zoos, Jon Coote ( Sept. '06 Reptiles mag. ) and self - all agree that the humidity is the important factor. Fife ( sulcata breeder ) told me on the phone that his sulcata's do defecate and urinate in their hides to maintain the humidity that they require.. not by accident! I have "CH" STARS that have 'pyramiding'.. and WC STARS that are perfectly smooth.. all acquired at the same 4" SCL.

The "separation" ( space between ) of the scutes is [ my experience ] from overfeeding. When fed too much the "spaces" appear. This was observed from WC adults that were perfectly smooth when acquired in the summer of '03.. and started to show "spaces" by the next summer - after kept in "closer" indoor quarters over-winter. The diet was changed from every other day to 2 days on.. 3 days off. The hatchlings have a tendency to grow too fast also.. a BIG issue when feeding 'any' hatchling. Being "Opportunistic" they eat to stay alive.. but if their 'living-space' is not big enough they aren't able to 'burn' the calories between feedings [ a pile of food in one spot! ]. They should never walk away with any food remaining! If they do.. cut that amount in half.

So.... all things the same:

Humidity influences smooth carapace growth.
Overfeeding causes "space between scutes" carapace growth.

NERD