Pyramiding partially diet related?

[rkelleh]

Hello all. My temps are at 80 inside (even have a ceramic emitter for night now) and humidity levels are 70-75%. Basking is at 95-100 They are almost a year and I still do daily soaks as well as keep humid hides. I use topsoil and a peat moss layer in the middle for substrate...BUT they have started to pyramid...

Now one thing I have not been successful at is getting them to eat grasses. I have tried Mazuri, Grassland, orchard hay, fescue, etc. I have grinded up in a coffee grinder, moistened it, offered it dry, sprinkled on food, fresh cut with scissors on food, naturally growing, offered separately, and these lil ones eat around it or leave the food pieces with the grasses alone. I offer them clover, dandelion, opuntia, hybiscus, spring mix, kale, carrot tops, tortoise graze mix, and recently prickly pear fruit...most of these I have grown from seed. They will eat most but not the grass, and apparently they don't like prickly pear fruit. They are finicky eaters. Are they old enough to just offer grasses until they get hungry and eat it? Like a eat or starve? Should I try the tortoise salad stuff they sell to see if that will entice them?

I have read many things about pyramiding from humidity to even diet being a reason behind it. It seems like a big controversial subject out there. Any thoughts to help with getting them to grasses? And any suggestions to stopping this pyramiding? Much much appreciated for your expertise and advice.

 

[wellington]

Don't bother too much with the grass. Leopards won't eat it until much older. My leopard would not even graze on grass until around 3- 3 1/2 years.
Do you have them in a closed chamber? What are you reading the temps and humidity levels with? Those cheap disc type gauges you can buy from the pet stores are unreliable.
If you don't have a closed chamber or good gauges, maybe that is what is causing them to still pyramid.

 

[Tom]

Several points:
1. Most "regular" leopards won't eat grass. The ones that do appear to be South African mixes. South Africans eat grass like a sulcata.
2. In all of my experience, pyramiding has nothing to do with diet.
3. 70% humidity is too low, again, in my experience.
4. Are you spraying the carapace several times a day? I find that helps a lot.
5. How were they started right after hatching? Wet routine or dry?
6. Are they living as a pair? I have an ever growing suspicion that some pyramiding is stress related. No proof yet. Just a theory. Living as a pair is very stressful.
7. How much time are they spending outside?
8. Having said all of that, sometimes they just pyramid a little no matter what we do. Even when everything is "perfect" I still sometimes get a little bit some of the time. This where that stress thing is coming from...

 

[rkelleh]

Don't bother too much with the grass. Leopards won't eat it until much older. My leopard would not even graze on grass until around 3- 3 1/2 years.
Do you have them in a closed chamber? What are you reading the temps and humidity levels with? Those cheap disc type gauges you can buy from the pet stores are unreliable.
If you don't have a closed chamber or good gauges, maybe that is what is causing them to still pyramid.

I use a laser temp gun to check temps around the enclosure. I do go off the disk thing for humidity. It is closed aquarium with top covered 90% of it. Am glad to hear on grasses as that has stressed me out with their diet.

 

[rkelleh]

Several points:
1. Most "regular" leopards won't eat grass. The ones that do appear to be South African mixes. South Africans eat grass like a sulcata.
2. In all of my experience, pyramiding has nothing to do with diet.
3. 70% humidity is too low, again, in my experience.
4. Are you spraying the carapace several times a day? I find that helps a lot.
5. How were they started right after hatching? Wet routine or dry?
6. Are they living as a pair? I have an ever growing suspicion that some pyramiding is stress related. No proof yet. Just a theory. Living as a pair is very stressful.
7. How much time are they spending outside?
8. Having said all of that, sometimes they just pyramid a little no matter what we do. Even when everything is "perfect" I still sometimes get a little bit some of the time. This where that stress thing is coming from...

I got them from a pet store that had them in dry conditions on bark and no soaks. I was told they were 2 months old when I got them. I will bump up humidity more. Do you suggest 80%, 90%? I check the humidity before I go to work and when I get home...it seems to stay constant at the 70-75 mark even when I am remotely working or days off. I can bump that up...please let me know suggestion on humidity.

I spray them twice a day due to working away from home but 3 days a week, I spray them probably 5 times or so during those 3 days. They do live together. One thing I noticed is that if I put 2 humid hides in, not 1 is used. If I only have 1 humid hide, they both will use it...so I went down to 1 humid hide in order for usage. I put them outside in the beginning 1 hour a day but as time went on and weather cooled to 85 or so, I will put them out for 5+ hours 3 days a week and then 1-2 hours most of the rest of the days (when I am home and can monitor based off of when I get home and current temps.

Much appreciated for your assistance.

 

[Tom]

I got them from a pet store that had them in dry conditions on bark and no soaks. I was told they were 2 months old when I got them. I will bump up humidity more. Do you suggest 80%, 90%? I check the humidity before I go to work and when I get home...it seems to stay constant at the 70-75 mark even when I am remotely working or days off. I can bump that up...please let me know suggestion on humidity.

I spray them twice a day due to working away from home but 3 days a week, I spray them probably 5 times or so during those 3 days. They do live together. One thing I noticed is that if I put 2 humid hides in, not 1 is used. If I only have 1 humid hide, they both will use it...so I went down to 1 humid hide in order for usage. I put them outside in the beginning 1 hour a day but as time went on and weather cooled to 85 or so, I will put them out for 5+ hours 3 days a week and then 1-2 hours most of the rest of the days (when I am home and can monitor based off of when I get home and current temps.

Much appreciated for your assistance.

Here is what I would do differently:
1. Keep humidity 80+ all the time.
2. Spray them more often when you can.
3. Separate them. Living together as a pair is very stressful.
4. I wouldn't leave them outside for more than an hour or two a day.


It sounds to me like you are fighting the pattern that was started at the breeders place and/or the pet store. Once the pattern for pyramiding is started, it is very difficult to stop it. Takes time and a lot of effort.

 

[rkelleh]

Here is what I would do differently:
1. Keep humidity 80+ all the time.
2. Spray them more often when you can.
3. Separate them. Living together as a pair is very stressful.
4. I wouldn't leave them outside for more than an hour or two a day.


It sounds to me like you are fighting the pattern that was started at the breeders place and/or the pet store. Once the pattern for pyramiding is started, it is very difficult to stop it. Takes time and a lot of effort.

Thank you. I was just thumbing through your end pyramiding thread. Lots of good info. I will make some adjustments tonight. Much appreciated.

 

[Careym13]

Several points:
1. Most "regular" leopards won't eat grass. The ones that do appear to be South African mixes. South Africans eat grass like a sulcata.
2. In all of my experience, pyramiding has nothing to do with diet.
3. 70% humidity is too low, again, in my experience.
4. Are you spraying the carapace several times a day? I find that helps a lot.
5. How were they started right after hatching? Wet routine or dry?
6. Are they living as a pair? I have an ever growing suspicion that some pyramiding is stress related. No proof yet. Just a theory. Living as a pair is very stressful.
7. How much time are they spending outside?
8. Having said all of that, sometimes they just pyramid a little no matter what we do. Even when everything is "perfect" I still sometimes get a little bit some of the time. This where that stress thing is coming from...

#6: I think this may be the case with my two leo's. The bigger one, who used to bully the smaller one has NO pyramiding. The smaller one, is not only smaller, but has some minor pyramiding and they are being raised in EXACTLY the same conditions with the same diet. Since being separated, the smaller one is starting to catch up in size and smooth out. But bullying seems to be the only logical cause for one being pyramided and the other not.