Please get a clue!!

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Stazz

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Well Nick and I are a pure example of what can happen - we went to the pet store looking for dogs, and never found one, and ended up coming home with Tallula the same day. First thing I did was go to google and research, research, research....there are so many contradicting things on the net! I then came across another forum, where someone recommended to this one pretty soon after I joined - Ive learned so so soooo much on here to benefit Tallula's life for the better. It was indeed purely impulsive but You cannot complain about newbies as you were once one too were you not. You get the people who will research alot before they buy the tort, and then you get someone like me, who just could not walk away from the tort in the pet store.

Apart from all that debate.....I agree on getting a FAQ sticky, possibly in Introductions, of all the typcial newbie questions, of which I once asked and am still asking 8 months later! :D Smiles!
 

Yvonne G

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-EJ said:
The OP is trolling... nothing more. What is the value of his rant to any forum... apparently... a great deal considering the positive response... that is seriously sad.

I guess I'm missing the point. What exactly do you mean by "trolling?" This post has been placed in debatable topics. If we post here doesn't that mean we would be trolling for different opinions on the subject? So unless I'm not interpreting trolling correctly, what's wrong with trolling in debatable topics?

As to the value of the rant...I often feel the same way as the OP on this subject. Same old questions...same poor little sick tortoise...it does tend to wear you down after a while. But we just continue to muddle through and do the best we can.

Yvonne
 

-EJ

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I guess you're right.

My take on this 'debate' is that the OP is ignorant to the fact that the majority of the tortoise keepers obtain most of their tortoises on impulse... you and I included.

I think the OP really needs to get a clue.

emysemys said:
-EJ said:
The OP is trolling... nothing more. What is the value of his rant to any forum... apparently... a great deal considering the positive response... that is seriously sad.

I guess I'm missing the point. What exactly do you mean by "trolling?" This post has been placed in debatable topics. If we post here doesn't that mean we would be trolling for different opinions on the subject? So unless I'm not interpreting trolling correctly, what's wrong with trolling in debatable topics?

As to the value of the rant...I often feel the same way as the OP on this subject. Same old questions...same poor little sick tortoise...it does tend to wear you down after a while. But we just continue to muddle through and do the best we can.

Yvonne
 

Clementine_3

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Yes, this is classic trolling. A post was made simply to stir up the forum members. It is one thing to say "I'm getting tired of people not doing their research" but quite another to initially imply that folks should be made to feel bad about asking for help. That really, IMO, was the purpose of this post...to belittle new members who come here looking for assistance. Nowhere was it originally mentioned that a new area be created with or without stickies or that someone should not have to be a member (which I truly don't understand anyway) to fully utilize the forum. The post was made to rile the masses, nothing more.

The OP has changed his mind numerous times and backtracked more times than I can count. I frankly can't even follow the gist of this anymore, mainly because I don't think there is one. Some good points were raised, there was good discussion but that was merely a byproduct, not the original intent.

I'm not saying this type of thread should be locked or removed or not allowed, just pointing out that it does indeed seem to be very, very troll-like in every way ;)

And yes, (s)he does need to get a clue!
 

-EJ

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Thank you... person with a clue.

This response negates all the others as far as I'm concerned.



Clementine_3 said:
Yes, this is classic trolling. A post was made simply to stir up the forum members. It is one thing to say "I'm getting tired of people not doing their research" but quite another to initially imply that folks should be made to feel bad about asking for help. That really, IMO, was the purpose of this post...to belittle new members who come here looking for assistance. Nowhere was it originally mentioned that a new area be created with or without stickies or that someone should not have to be a member (which I truly don't understand anyway) to fully utilize the forum. The post was made to rile the masses, nothing more.

The OP has changed his mind numerous times and backtracked more times than I can count. I frankly can't even follow the gist of this anymore, mainly because I don't think there is one. Some good points were raised, there was good discussion but that was merely a byproduct, not the original intent.

I'm not saying this type of thread should be locked or removed or not allowed, just pointing out that it does indeed seem to be very, very troll-like in every way ;)

And yes, (s)he does need to get a clue!
 

Livingstone

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Again, I appreciate the criticism. This thread has evolved from me ranting, to the forum finding a solution. I do agree that my original post was over the top, however, if nobody ever complained then change would never happen. Whether we change or not, the intent of my original post was to find a way to change how we answer critical and time sensitive questions. This was not supposed to be an opportunity to pick sides, this is not third grade dodgeball.

maggie3fan said:
I personally think that rather then make joining and asking questions easier for the newbie, laws need to make it harder to buy a tortoise. Stop the impulse buy totally and make the whole process of buying a turtle or a tortoise harder...

In most countries it is much harder, this is one of the laxest in terms of owning what are considered wild animals. Until the law makers catch up the best thing to do is make the answers more accessable.

I do agree whole heartedly that if everybody that owned an exotic animal had to have a permit, we would probably have alot more responsible owners... or just fewer.
 

-EJ

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Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.

It's not a third grade dodgeball... it's the seeking of attention.
Your point is good but your delivery... totally sucks... but I suspect that was the intent.

Livingstone said:
Again, I appreciate the criticism. This thread has evolved from me ranting, to the forum finding a solution. I do agree that my original post was over the top, however, if nobody ever complained then change would never happen. Whether we change or not, the intent of my original post was to find a way to change how we answer critical and time sensitive questions. This was not supposed to be an opportunity to pick sides, this is not third grade dodgeball.

maggie3fan said:
I personally think that rather then make joining and asking questions easier for the newbie, laws need to make it harder to buy a tortoise. Stop the impulse buy totally and make the whole process of buying a turtle or a tortoise harder...

In most countries it is much harder, this is one of the laxest in terms of owning what are considered wild animals. Until the law makers catch up the best thing to do is make the answers more accessable.

I do agree whole heartedly that if everybody that owned an exotic animal had to have a permit, we would probably have alot more responsible owners... or just fewer.

 

Livingstone

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katesgoey said:
I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.

Does everybody that owns a tortoise have access to a vet? Some vets would probably do more harm than good due to the fact that they dont specialize in reptiles. Some owners cant afford a vet bill? Some torts cant be taken to a vet due to size.

A vet list is a very good thing to have and I am sincerely grateful that Maggie is putting in the time to compile a list.

There are cases you have to consider though... Vets are expensive, with the current economic situation, if a person had to choose between putting food on the table and saving the family tort, unfortunately the tort is going to loose.

These are hard realities to face, but by removing as many roadblocks to answers as possible, we will be doing the right thing for the animal even if the owner isn't able too.
 

-EJ

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Simple point...

You've not responded to any of my posts... why?

(you don't have to answer... I know)

Livingstone said:
katesgoey said:
I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.

Does everybody that owns a tortoise have access to a vet? Some vets would probably do more harm than good due to the fact that they dont specialize in reptiles. Some owners cant afford a vet bill? Some torts cant be taken to a vet due to size.

A vet list is a very good thing to have and I am sincerely grateful that Maggie is putting in the time to compile a list.

There are cases you have to consider though... Vets are expensive, with the current economic situation, if a person had to choose between putting food on the table and saving the family tort, unfortunately the tort is going to loose.

These are hard realities to face, but by removing as many roadblocks to answers as possible, we will be doing the right thing for the animal even if the owner isn't able too.
 

terryo

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-EJ said:
Simple point...

You've not responded to any of my posts... why?

(you don't have to answer... I know)

Livingstone said:
katesgoey said:
I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.

Does everybody that owns a tortoise have access to a vet? Some vets would probably do more harm than good due to the fact that they dont specialize in reptiles. Some owners cant afford a vet bill? Some torts cant be taken to a vet due to size.

A vet list is a very good thing to have and I am sincerely grateful that Maggie is putting in the time to compile a list.

There are cases you have to consider though... Vets are expensive, with the current economic situation, if a person had to choose between putting food on the table and saving the family tort, unfortunately the tort is going to loose.

These are hard realities to face, but by removing as many roadblocks to answers as possible, we will be doing the right thing for the animal even if the owner isn't able too.

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.........give up Ed.
 

Livingstone

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-EJ said:
Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.

I have already accepted responsability for the OP, and again I apologize if it got readers upset/pissed off etc.

And I understand that the people that write the posts about the sick and dying animals dont do any or little prior research to buying the animal. That is obviously why they post so franticly for answers, the goal is to have a section where these people can post these questions immediately and recieve accurate information since they couldn't take the time to get it right before hand.
 

katesgoey

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Livingstone said:
katesgoey said:
I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.

Does everybody that owns a tortoise have access to a vet? Some vets would probably do more harm than good due to the fact that they dont specialize in reptiles. Some owners cant afford a vet bill? Some torts cant be taken to a vet due to size.

A vet list is a very good thing to have and I am sincerely grateful that Maggie is putting in the time to compile a list.

There are cases you have to consider though... Vets are expensive, with the current economic situation, if a person had to choose between putting food on the table and saving the family tort, unfortunately the tort is going to loose.

These are hard realities to face, but by removing as many roadblocks to answers as possible, we will be doing the right thing for the animal even if the owner isn't able too.

It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?
 

-EJ

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You didn't answer one of my questions... did you research the keepining of your chelonian before you obtained it?

Another question... do you have OCD?

Livingstone said:
-EJ said:
Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.

I have already accepted responsability for the OP, and again I apologize if it got readers upset/pissed off etc.

And I understand that the people that write the posts about the sick and dying animals dont do any or little prior research to buying the animal. That is obviously why they post so franticly for answers, the goal is to have a section where these people can post these questions immediately and recieve accurate information since they couldn't take the time to get it right before hand.
 

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katesgoey said:
It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?

There are factors that we can change and there are ones that we can't.
The responsability of owning an animal falls on that person, nobody can stop someone from buying a tortoise. We also cannot control whether or not they do research before hand.

What we can control is the timeliness of the answer and the ease of posting, regardless of what is being inferred by the original post.
 

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Livingstone said:
That is obviously why they post so franticly for answers, the goal is to have a section where these people can post these questions immediately and recieve accurate information since they couldn't take the time to get it right before hand.

There are factors that we can change and there are ones that we can't.
The responsability of owning an animal falls on that person, nobody can stop someone from buying a tortoise. We also cannot control whether or not they do research before hand.

What we can control is the timeliness of the answer and the ease of posting, regardless of what is being inferred by the original post.
And this is where I lose you (well, OK, I've totally lost the whole point, but...), it takes mere moments to register and get a confirmatory email and finalize enrollment. Another few minutes to create a post. If the situation is so dire that 10 minutes is going to make a difference it's beyond a little too late. No matter how quickly a post is made it can still be days before someone answers, how would you propose that be fixed? Paid staff sitting at the keyboard 24/7? Even a "special newb section" would be pointless as many, many issues are species specific. So, you would have to have a duplicate forum index for just newbs really.
Yet you go on to say that no one can control who buys, researches or provides vet care and then somehow imply if they got posting privileges faster and quicker answers all would be solved?
I'm sorry but I truly, honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about from post to post!
 

-EJ

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read your own post.

Do you have a concept of how controling your post reads?????

What's interesting is that you've sparked an idea.

Livingstone said:
katesgoey said:
It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?

There are factors that we can change and there are ones that we can't.
The responsability of owning an animal falls on that person, nobody can stop someone from buying a tortoise. We also cannot control whether or not they do research before hand.

What we can control is the timeliness of the answer and the ease of posting, regardless of what is being inferred by the original post.
 

Crazy1

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OK I was going to stay out of this but here I am with my fingers flying on the keyboard. I have to say that an open section for non members to post important or critical questions will more than likely not happen. My Opinion. There is no way to regulate how many times a person who is not a member would post and about what. Most people now post questions with titles that don’t let anyone know they or their tort is in crisis. And if they do it does not contain complete information.

Guidelines clearly state; “a post titled 'please help' tells others nothing about your question. Try to be specific, like: 'Diet help for Russian tortoise hatchling.'”

Though if in crisis mode they may not take the time to read the guidelines. But let’s be perfectly honest. Most people who post that their tort is sick, or not eating for weeks, or too weak to lift it’s head, or hasn’t moved in days, more than likely would not have taken the time to read the guidelines anyway or look at a FAQ list (which is hard to keep up to date). They ask the question because they want someone to spoon feed them the answer. They want it NOW. They are hoping we, anyone can make a miracle happen and make their tort all better. Unfortunately it usually doesn’t work that way. First we are not miracle workers. Most of us have learned by trial and error, success and loss. Most of those who post a first time question in crisis, get the pat answer to take it to a vet. We are not vets nor would a reputable vet (not any I know) make a diagnosis over the internet without ever seeing the animal. Let alone with some of the incomplete questions that people post.
Even some of those that post often do not take advice that they are given. Though it is their prerogative. Some have even tried to argue a point.

Yes there is a responsiblity when you buy or own a pet/animal. As an animal owner if you can no longer care for that animal then it is your responsiblity to find a rehab faciities, rescue, etc that can take care of it. That is the responsible thing to do.

We keep getting the kind of questions we do because often torts are an impulse buy especially hatchlings, which are the hardest of torts to deal with. Whether incomplete or bad care sheets are given, or none at all. Even if the hatchling is set up correctly there is no guarantee that a hatchling will thrive. We will not solve the problem by opening up a open forum for anyone to post anything. Heck we won’t solve the problem here at all.

So for now I think we are doing a Stellar job at what we are and what we do. A forum, a community of tort keepers that want to better understand how and practice keeping tortoises as best as they can be kept in captivity. And help educate those that want to be educated and learn as much as we can ourselves.

As a member I too get weary of repeating myself and others comments about care, diet etc. but that is what this forum is about. Helping and educating. Kind of like working with a class then starting with a new one in a few months all over again.

I would never suggest, tell, propose, advise, recommend or advocate someone not post questions no matter how many times they have been posted and or answered before. However I may point them to the site the answers are posted so they can read and learn from that.

Please understand these are my personal feelings as a member of this forum, not as a moderator.
 

Livingstone

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Clementine_3 said:
And this is where I lose you (well, OK, I've totally lost the whole point, but...), it takes mere moments to register and get a confirmatory email and finalize enrollment. Another few minutes to create a post. If the situation is so dire that 10 minutes is going to make a difference it's beyond a little too late. No matter how quickly a post is made it can still be days before someone answers, how would you propose that be fixed? Paid staff sitting at the keyboard 24/7? Even a "special newb section" would be pointless as many, many issues are species specific. So, you would have to have a duplicate forum index for just newbs really.
Yet you go on to say that no one can control who buys, researches or provides vet care and then somehow imply if they got posting privileges faster and quicker answers all would be solved?
I'm sorry but I truly, honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about from post to post!

You raise a very interesting point about the difference in species necessitating the a newb section in each species sub-forum.
Im not trying to imply that by creating a section that allows non memb ers to post that all these problems would be solved, but it cant hurt either.
 

-EJ

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Please... keep in mind that the OP seems to be looking for attention although he/she has touched on a touchy subject.


Crazy1 said:
OK I was going to stay out of this but here I am with my fingers flying on the keyboard...
 

Livingstone

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Thanks Robyn, again I appreciate you putting my suggestion to the right people, regardless of the outcome. I will continue to try and advise new owners within my ability or otherwise direct them to more knowledgable members like EJ. I will also refrain from posting in such an arguementative manner. My apologies for the confusion, poor communication/posting and agravation.

Rob.
 
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