Picky Picky

[Savage2660]

So we've had our little Solomon for about 3 weeks now. Just discovered this past week the dehydration thing. But he's coming out of it now and he's getting picky lol. We were concerned that he was only eating out of our hand and not from his food dish. He would walk around the food. Walk over the food. Nap on the food. But not eat the food. But from watching him we notice he would pick at the repto bark and rocks. And in general investigate everything. So we took the food out the dish and layed it around and now he likes it. Seems he likes to forage for his leafy foods. Finely chopped veggies he will eat off his dish. And he now gets A LOT of warm baths. He also sleeps most of the day. Arms and legs hanging out and looking sluggish and half dead. Doesn't even like to open his eyes when we mess with him. But About 8:30PM he started to perk up and get going. Think we got a night owl on our hands.. this should proved interesting when he gets big lol.

 

[wellington]

Check out the threads at the bottom of my post. Great for raising a smooth sulcata. Your enclosure looks a little to dry. You need to up the humidity. Cypress mulch or my fave coconut coir will help a lot for holding humidity. The coir won't mold and doesn't cause impaction. Also be sure he has a water dish large enough to get into and soak and drink. Also soak him in warm water every day for 20-30 minutes. He's a cutie.

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry to tell you that none of that is a good sign. You have a baby on the edge right there. Make sure all your temps and parameters are spot on to give him the best chance of recovery. You might want to try some baby food soaks too. Mix some carrot or yam human baby food with his warm soaking water. Sometimes this will help them pull through.

What are you using for heat and lighting? Any coil type fluorescent UV bulbs or colored reptile bulbs?

What foods are you offering there? I see some Italian parsley off to the right, but what are the other leaves?

 

[mainey34]

What are your temps and what is your humidity? It all plays part in their lives. I would also soak 2 times daily. And chop up greens. What kind of greens are you feeding if I may ask?

 

[Savage2660]

Right now under the Heat lamp it gets to over 100 and close to 80 on the cool side. He generally won't sit under the head lamp directly but off to the side where he's most comfortable. He gets 2 - 3 soakings a evening now. And he can sit in his water dish if he wants too. Also his water dish is a clay saucer close to the heat lamp and evaporates water all day long. His enclosure is misted a couple times a day as well. He eats dandelion, clover, grass, nasturtium, hibiscus leaves. Every few days he gets chopped up green bean, lima bean, and loves green pepper. Usually he'll bypass the beans and go for the green pepper. I can't really say how active he is in the morning hours since we are not here to see.

We are also now giving him a couple hours a day under compact florescents designed for growing coral. Right now I take the lights from my tank and give him some use of them. He seems to really like the lights. He perks right up. Almost like hitting his ON button.

We no not really ever see him drink though. When we first got him he would dip his head in the dish and drink. But we don't see that anymore, now he just soaks and walks around in it. Of course he could be drinking from the dish when we're not watching.

Like I said in the original post he's really active in the evenings. Last night he walked all over the dining room and kitchen.

 

[Savage2660]

Pretty sure he's getting enough water now. I've had reptiles my whole life. This is my first tortoise though. I am very used to seeing the white chalky looking urine when they defecate. But our just little Solomon just pissed on me. I'm talking full blown stream coming out. So unless this is some unusual rare sign of something horrible, I'll take it as a positive that he's getting his water.

 

[Tom]

Your cfl bulbs might be the issue. The UV ones that are specifically sold for reptiles can damage their eyes. I have no idea what spectrum your coral growing lights are, but they are probably hurting his eyes. I would stop using those immediately.

 

[Savage2660]

Your cfl bulbs might be the issue. The UV ones that are specifically sold for reptiles can damage their eyes. I have no idea what spectrum your coral growing lights are, but they are probably hurting his eyes. I would stop using those immediately.

Well I really don't think these have been a problem, he seems to like it. It's not on all day. Only a couple hours in the evening. If not put directly over him, he will walk to sit under it. These bulbs are specifically designed to simulate natural sun light.

The Fixture contains two bulbs. And yes they are stronger than repto bulbs. So that part of why he gets limited time under them. At the equator the Sunlight is ranges from 7000 - 10,000 lumens psf.

These are the buls

TrueLumen Flora Freshwater T5HO - A bright pinkish hue lamp emits the ideal light energy and spectrum required by freshwater plants for photosynthesis. High color rendition enhances the brilliant colors in freshwater fish and brings out the lush green in plants. Light concentration in the 300-400nm range.

TrueLumen 12,000K White T5HO - A powerful, penetrating full spectrum lamp replicating sunlight found on living coral reefs. Exceptional high lumen output concentrated between 400-480nm stimulates zooxanthellae production increasing both coral and invertebrate growth.

http://www.current-usa.com/lighting/nova-extreme-2x

 

[Tom]

There are a lot of clues in you first post here that indicate you have a serious problem. Just going by what you have told us, I'm pretty sure that your tortoise is having some eye issues. Lights that are designed to penetrate glass and many inches of water are likely going to be much too strong for delicate baby tortoise eyes. Even the bulbs that the manufacturers say are designed for reptiles often damage the eyes of young tortoises and some other basking species.

It is not normal for a baby sulcata to be "picky". They should behave like little Hoover vacuums.
It is not normal for them to only want to eat out of your hand.
The perkiness you see under those lights might be him trying to escape because they hurt his eyes.
The sleepiness you see during the day sounds normal, but the not wanting to open his eyes when you mess with him indicates lethargy and possible eye issues with are both common symptoms of being under incorrect lighting.
It is not normal for them to get active at 8:30 at night. They are a strictly diurnal species and night activity indicates something wrong. I've raised literally 100s of babies in many different ways and they usually retire for the evening about an hour or two before sunset. During the summer when it gets dark at 8:30 pm, my enclosures with two dozen babies look like ghost towns around 7:00 PM. Now that we are getting sunsets around 7pm, they are in their hide boxes by around 5 to 5:30pm. They do not get active again until the sun comes up the next morning. They are not night owls, and if yours is, it indicates a problem.

 

[Savage2660]

Currently this is whats going on. Basking spot averages around 100-110 degrees, while the warmer side is staying about 80-90 degrees, the cooler side is staying about 78-84 where his little burrow hut we made for him is located. We are currently useing a repto bark that seems to work well in holding moisture. We spray his enclosure with a misting bottle to make sure the bark stays moist and try to keep his area humid. We also have the inside of his little house/burrow littered with the repto bark and we spray the inside of it to keep that humid also. It seems to get humid enough if we put a cover over his enclosure eventually water vapors form on the top and sides. He eats a variety of plants, however imma try and mix it up even a bit more after looking over the nice thread you have about edible plants imma go to the woodsy area where i live and go plant hunting to try and throw even some more variety into his diet. He has a water dish that sets off to the side from his basking area so as not to get hot being to close to the hot spot but to keep it a bit warmer as we live in ohio and temp changes happen quit commonly. Is that a good thing or bad thing? the water in no way gets hot or anything just a minor "luke warm" at the most. Ive been starting to try and give him a cal/d3 supplement with his food every 3-4 days and if its warm enough i try and take him outside, but sadly it has been getting colder and i dont rly wanna take him out if its cold (averageing about 65-70 degree's now outside) I soak him at least 2 times a day in nice warm water however he never seems to actually "drink" it when i do, however he did urinate on the floor last night -.- lol i am using a 60 watt bulb for his heating and basking spot, what do you recommend? do i need more light? The coral light was being used as a simulation to the sun as we cant take him outside as much currently, but if you rly think this is bad i will discontinue use of it. I am also in the process of getting him a larger enclosure as i keep reading bigger is better. His current enclosure is roughly larger than a 20 gallon tank but not as big as a 50 however the new enclosure im going to be working on is going to be about 4x's that size. based on what youve already read please give me the best tips i can do to improve all the things ive mentioned here. (this is shawn btw i live with Savage lol im the other half) He is currently as we said very lethargic, and wont open his eyes much during most of the day. He does become a bit more active in the late afternoon/early evening (round 7-830ish our time) which is about 45 mins before the sun goes down at night he gets darkness however we keep our house at about 74 degree's at night. Im trying to give you everything i think you might possibly need to know to give the best evaluation of what we may or may not being doing wrong and to help fix the problem so he hopefully pulls through. I do apologize in advance repeating im sure alot of information we have already mentioned i just wanted to make sure i cover EVERYTHING i can think of. He is currently living indoors as i said its getting colder and he cant live outside and he is currently much to small to be left alone outside anyways. Im sure that throws things off a bit. however im trying to best make a day/night living environment. Once again thanks for all the input and help. Shawn

 

[Tom]

All of your parameters seem okay, so the biggest question now is: How was he housed before you got him? What substrate and how often was he soaked? Often irreparable damage is done to them in the first few weeks and then it's only a matter of time for some of them. Others pull through and do just fine. It sounds like you guys are doing pretty well, but here are a few tweaks that I would do:
1. Skip the coral lights. If you want to give him good lighting (which is really awesome of you guys) get a long fluorescent tube and fixture or a mercury vapor bulb.
2. Use a larger enclosure. I think a 60 or a 100 is ideal for starting babies or something around 2x4' for homebuilt enclosures. I started all my babies this year in a 4x4' closed chamber and they have all done really well. These bigger sizes give them plenty of room to move around and exercise, even with all the "furniture" in place, and they allow you to create a better thermal gradient for them to regulate their own body temperature. The closed chamber makes it very easy, with a minimal amount of electricity to provide them with ideal conditions 24/7.
3. keep it warmer at night. 74 is too cool with all that good moisture. I shoot for 80. My usual strategy is a basking bulb (50-65 watt flood), over one end of the enclosure, on a 12 hour timer, with the height set to give me a basking hot spot directly under the bulb of around 100. Then I use a ceramic heating element over the middle of the enclosure on a thermostat set to 80, to maintain the ambient 24/7.
4. I see lots of people soaking multiple times a day now. I don't know where this started, but usually once is enough, unless gastro-intestinal obstruction is suspected or something. During the very hottest part of summer, I will occasionally soak tiny hatchlings before and after sunning, but in most cases, I think once a day is plenty.
5. I think your water bowl location is fine, but what sort of water bowl are you using? It needs to be a shallow low sided dish. I prefer terra cotta plant saucers.
6. I like to use a flat piece of rock directly under the basking light. This makes it easier to get a good accurate temp reading, dissipates the heat in your enclosure better, and helps warm their little bellies in a SAFE way when they want it.

Wishing you the best of luck Shawn. Keep asking lots of questions. None of us ever stop learning and tweaking our enclosures and techniques to make them better.