Outdoor housing for two 2-year-old sulcatas

[Maryalice]

My two 2-year-old sulcatas have outgrown their indoor enclosures and I have moved them to full outdoor living for about 2 weeks now. I had customized a night house for them made from plywood, that opens on top and in front (both openings are kept close when they retire for the night). I transferred their heating lamps and thermostat control (set at 30C) into this new house. Diet is a mix of 70% grass and 30% alternating mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves/flowers, bokchoy, moringa, romaine, nalta jute with added squash or cucumber once every 2 weeks. Calcium and Reptivite are mixed into their food 2x a week, and once a week, respectively. They are let out in the morning at 8 am after breakfast, and they just roam the garden the whole day and find shady spots when the sun is too hot. They get one-hour soaks daily in the late afternoon, and brought back into their house when it gets dark at 6pm. Recently, I am noticing some indentation on the shell of Frankie (the smaller one, but older by 2 months than Harriet, the bigger one). His middle back schute (see photo) is indented inward. Since Frankie has had some little pyramiding (he didn’t have a good start), am concerned this indentation could be a start of MBD. Would appreciate your views on this.

 

[Maryalice]

My two 2-year-old sulcatas have outgrown their indoor enclosures and I have moved them to full outdoor living for about 2 weeks now. I had customized a night house for them made from plywood, that opens on top and in front (both openings are kept close when they retire for the night). I transferred their heating lamps and thermostat control (set at 30C) into this new house. Diet is a mix of 70% grass and 30% alternating mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves/flowers, bokchoy, moringa, romaine, nalta jute with added squash or cucumber once every 2 weeks. Calcium and Reptivite are mixed into their food 2x a week, and once a week, respectively. They are let out in the morning at 8 am after breakfast, and they just roam the garden the whole day and find shady spots when the sun is too hot. They get one-hour soaks daily in the late afternoon, and brought back into their house when it gets dark at 6pm. Recently, I am noticing some indentation on the shell of Frankie (the smaller one, but older by 2 months than Harriet, the bigger one). His middle back schute (see photo) is indented inward. Since Frankie has had some little pyramiding (he didn’t have a good start), am concerned this indentation could be a start of MBD. Would appreciate your views on this.

Here’s a clearer photo of the indentation.

 

[Tom]

Heat lamps are not safe for older tortoises. You also don't want the "sun" Turing on and off all night. They need it dark at night. Time to switch to safer night heating devices. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

Your boxes would be more effective if they were shorter too. No need to go over 24 inches. You are just heating air well above the tortoises for no reason.

A few more things:
They should not be living together outside. Tortoises should never be kept in pairs and this is why one is so much larger than the other. They need separate enclosures. They should not be able to see or contact each other.

This species should no be on concrete or paving stones. This will wear through their feet and one day you will see little bloody foot prints about the enclosure. They need to be on dirt or grass.

The indentation is normal. You cannot get MDB when they are fed an excellent diet like yours are, and given access to sunshine.

 

[Maryalice]

Heat lamps are not safe for older tortoises. You also don't want the "sun" Turing on and off all night. They need it dark at night. Time to switch to safer night heating devices. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

Your boxes would be more effective if they were shorter too. No need to go over 24 inches. You are just heating air well above the tortoises for no reason.

A few more things:
They should not be living together outside. Tortoises should never be kept in pairs and this is why one is so much larger than the other. They need separate enclosures. They should not be able to see or contact each other.

This species should no be on concrete or paving stones. This will wear through their feet and one day you will see little bloody foot prints about the enclosure. They need to be on dirt or grass.

The indentation is normal. You cannot get MDB when they are fed an excellent diet like yours are, and given access to sunshine.

Thanks, Tom, for your assurance that the indentation on Frankie's shell is not the start of MBD. Your comments on their housing and outdoor living is appreciated. Just to let you know that they are completely separated in their house at night. Your comment on the ideal height of their night house is noted. I had it made 3 feet high so the lamps would at least be 1-1/2 feet above their shells, with some allowance for when they grow bigger in the next 3 or 4 years before I move them to a bigger house. (Actually, the style of their house is inspired by the night boxes you described, with some modifications to suit a tropical climate.) They are also fed separately inside their houses in the morning before they are let out, and in the afternoon after their bath (although they graze the whole day). Their day outdoor space is about 12 meters X 5meters of grass with different plants lining the walls of the property, with various hiding spaces. The concrete part is only about one and a half meter wide and it is where their house stands. They barely meet each other, as each one has claimed a certain part of the garden. They tend to go to their separate hiding spots in the garden when they are let out, and then are moved back to their house at feeding time in the afternoon. I am thinking of doing away with the heat lamps altogether. The day lamp (with light) does not get used anymore, as they are out of their houses the whole day. I only turn on the thermostat control at night for the CHE (no light, so they are in complete darkness), but they barely turn on, as our average temperature now in Manila is 29C-32C at night. I have set the thermostat to 30C, and it is only in the wee hours of the morning when the temperature drops to 28C-29C that it automatically goes on. I know that they are safe in temps above 26C, so am thinking of not using the CHE even at night. I would need the heating lamps only during rainy days when the temps get to be a bit cooler. May I know why "heat lamps are not safe for older tortoises"? What should I watch out for, to keep them safe?

 

[Tom]

Thanks, Tom, for your assurance that the indentation on Frankie's shell is not the start of MBD. Your comments on their housing and outdoor living is appreciated. Just to let you know that they are completely separated in their house at night. Your comment on the ideal height of their night house is noted. I had it made 3 feet high so the lamps would at least be 1-1/2 feet above their shells, with some allowance for when they grow bigger in the next 3 or 4 years before I move them to a bigger house. (Actually, the style of their house is inspired by the night boxes you described, with some modifications to suit a tropical climate.) They are also fed separately inside their houses in the morning before they are let out, and in the afternoon after their bath (although they graze the whole day). Their day outdoor space is about 12 meters X 5meters of grass with different plants lining the walls of the property, with various hiding spaces. The concrete part is only about one and a half meter wide and it is where their house stands. They barely meet each other, as each one has claimed a certain part of the garden. They tend to go to their separate hiding spots in the garden when they are let out, and then are moved back to their house at feeding time in the afternoon. I am thinking of doing away with the heat lamps altogether. The day lamp (with light) does not get used anymore, as they are out of their houses the whole day. I only turn on the thermostat control at night for the CHE (no light, so they are in complete darkness), but they barely turn on, as our average temperature now in Manila is 29C-32C at night. I have set the thermostat to 30C, and it is only in the wee hours of the morning when the temperature drops to 28C-29C that it automatically goes on. I know that they are safe in temps above 26C, so am thinking of not using the CHE even at night. I would need the heating lamps only during rainy days when the temps get to be a bit cooler. May I know why "heat lamps are not safe for older tortoises"? What should I watch out for, to keep them safe?

Heat lamps and CHEs will overheat the tops of the carapace on larger tortoises and cause damage to the keratin as well as pyramiding. If they are high enough up to not cause damage, then they are too high to be very effective at heating them.

I would leave the CHEs connected to the thermostat for now. If your CHEs are near the top of that box, then they should be far enough away to not do damage. In your warm climate, they won't be on most of the time anyway, and because it is warm every day, the tortoises won't just sit under them all day like they might do here in North America. When you make the new larger night box, I would swap to a Kane mat and radiant heat panel, or a radiant oil filled heater for warmth.

The two tortoises each know the other one is there. They may be keeping to themselves for now, but even that is an indication that it is a problem. They know the other is there and they have to avoid certain parts of their territory to avoid a confrontation. The low level chronic stress is not good for them. Imagine if you had some insane angry neighbor that harassed you on sight every time you went outside your house. Imagine the stress you'd feel in the pit of your stomach every time you wanted to go outside knowing this lunatic was going to come over and yell at you and threaten you as you try to go about your business. Its not good. Just make a divider in this pen and house them separately BEFORE you come home one day and find one of them injured or dead.

 

[Maryalice]

Heat lamps and CHEs will overheat the tops of the carapace on larger tortoises and cause damage to the keratin as well as pyramiding. If they are high enough up to not cause damage, then they are too high to be very effective at heating them.

I would leave the CHEs connected to the thermostat for now. If your CHEs are near the top of that box, then they should be far enough away to not do damage. In your warm climate, they won't be on most of the time anyway, and because it is warm every day, the tortoises won't just sit under them all day like they might do here in North America. When you make the new larger night box, I would swap to a Kane mat and radiant heat panel, or a radiant oil filled heater for warmth.

The two tortoises each know the other one is there. They may be keeping to themselves for now, but even that is an indication that it is a problem. They know the other is there and they have to avoid certain parts of their territory to avoid a confrontation. The low level chronic stress is not good for them. Imagine if you had some insane angry neighbor that harassed you on sight every time you went outside your house. Imagine the stress you'd feel in the pit of your stomach every time you wanted to go outside knowing this lunatic was going to come over and yell at you and threaten you as you try to go about your business. Its not good. Just make a divider in this pen and house them separately BEFORE you come home one day and find one of them injured or dead.

This makes a lot of sense. I understand now. Thanks so much for these valuable tips.