Out door heating and wiring questions!

[luke]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Excuse me this is my thread!

JK

JD sorry to hear about situation and the meds. I know what its like to have health issues. Smoking at to a.m. tho, you were asking for it.

Do all GFI circuits have those button things? Because non of the outlets in my apt have those. Should I just install them? are they cheap?

Tell me more about this idea about drilling thru the wall. Would you suggest running the extension chord up to the wall and drilling a 0.5" whole with a mason bit?

If this is the case where should I start running the tubing and how do you recommend sealing the hole?

 

[N2TORTS]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Excuse me this is my thread!

JK

JD sorry to hear about situation and the meds. I know what its like to have health issues. Smoking at to a.m. tho, you were asking for it.

Do all GFI circuits have those button things? Because non of the outlets in my apt have those. Should I just install them? are they cheap?

Tell me more about this idea about drilling thru the wall. Would you suggest running the extension chord up to the wall and drilling a 0.5" whole with a mason bit?

If this is the case where should I start running the tubing and how do you recommend sealing the hole?

Emailme = Awsofine2@aol,com

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Do all GFI circuits have those button things? Because non of the outlets in my apt have those. Should I just install them? are they cheap?

The apartment manager/owner is in violation of state code then, any outlet within, some number of feet, to water has to be a GFI. All bathroom and kitchens near the sink. All exterior.

All circuits are interruptible, but at the "fuse box", so if it is a GFI outlet at the outlet, it will be apparent. Some have white button, some red and black, some all black, some all red. Some lighted to show that the 'interruption' has occurred. They are all three prong as well, and indication not discussed yet here.

Smoke detectors in the bedrooms, that is a law here now too.

So, they, the manager/owner, should install the GFI with your request. You might want to have someone else fool with it if your exposure to such things is that you do not know how to identify a type of outlet.

These are public speaking areas, threads are not owned. Well, I guess Josh could request myBB to erase content from their servers, and delete his own back-up, but otherwise, it is forever and public. Be

Will

 

[Tom]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

I wish to relate some personal experience that DOES have to do with this thread. I have a couple of 4x8x2' closed chambers in my garage. Over winter the temps in the garage drop into the low 50s. Two 100 watt CHEs were not enough to keep the temperature up until I wrapped the enclosure with 1.5 inch rigid foam insulation and another layer of plywood on top of that. Then I had to drape a furniture pad over the front at night to keep it warm enough when the heat lamps were off.

So outdoors, in the wind and weather, with temps below freezing, I don't think that enclosure is going to work.

 

[N2TORTS]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Since 1971, the NEC has expanded the requirements for ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) to protect anyone who plugs into an electrical system. Initially, it was only required for temporary wiring at construction sites and in dwelling unit bathrooms, but in recent years the Code requirements for GFCI protection have expanded to include many other areas, including commercial occupancies, fountains and swimming pools, and temporary installations, to name a few. Although dwellings older than 20 years are not required to retrofit existing systems in SOME cases.

*****One thing to consider not all States have the same building codes.

CALIFORNIA ELECTRICAL CODE 2013 - Effective Jan. 1 2014
Section 210.8

Dwelling units.
As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However….. there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener….. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.
Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.




Commercial occupancies. Per 210.8, you must install GFCI protection for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in bathrooms, rooftops, and kitchens in commercial/industrial facilities. However…..GFCI protection is not required for receptacles installed outside a commercial or industrial occupancy.
In addition, 210.63 requires you to install a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle outlet within 25 ft of heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The only exception to this rule is that you need not install GFCI protection for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.
Every receptacle installed in kitchens must be GFCI-protected. This new rule sets up an interesting situation. Sec. 210.8(A)(6) for dwelling units only requires GFCI protection for 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed to serve dwelling unit kitchen counter surfaces. However, 210.8(B)(3) requires all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in a commercial kitchen to be GFCI-protected.

Temporary installations.
In accordance with 527.6(A) and (B), you should always install GFCI devices on temporary wiring systems to protect workers during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment or similar activities. All 15A, 20A, and 30A, 125V receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure shall be equipped with GFCI protection. If a 15A, 20A, or 30A, 125V receptacle is part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and it is used for temporary electric power, GFCI protection for workers must be provided…..
There is an exception to this rule. In industrial establishments where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor program as specified in 527.6(B)(2) is permitted for only those receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater hazard if power was interrupted or those that have a design that is not compatible with GFCI protection.

 

[jaizei]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Copying and pasting is not the same as understanding. At the very least, I would recommend copying and pasting something that is based on the latest edition of the NEC, not something from 2002. The code is revised every few years. Some of this is wrong. You make it seem as though you are referencing the 2013 California Electric Code, but you are not.

You should also give credit to Mike Holt, who actually wrote much of your post.

Since 1971, the NEC has expanded the requirements for ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) to protect anyone who plugs into an electrical system. Initially, it was only required for temporary wiring at construction sites and in dwelling unit bathrooms, but in recent years the Code requirements for GFCI protection have expanded to include many other areas, including commercial occupancies, fountains and swimming pools, and temporary installations, to name a few. Although dwellings older than 20 years are not required to retrofit existing systems in SOME cases.

*****One thing to consider not all States have the same building codes.

CALIFORNIA ELECTRICAL CODE 2013 - Effective Jan. 1 2014
Section 210.8

Dwelling units.
As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However….. there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener….. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.
Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.




Commercial occupancies. Per 210.8, you must install GFCI protection for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in bathrooms, rooftops, and kitchens in commercial/industrial facilities. However…..GFCI protection is not required for receptacles installed outside a commercial or industrial occupancy.
In addition, 210.63 requires you to install a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle outlet within 25 ft of heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The only exception to this rule is that you need not install GFCI protection for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.
Every receptacle installed in kitchens must be GFCI-protected. This new rule sets up an interesting situation. Sec. 210.8(A)(6) for dwelling units only requires GFCI protection for 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed to serve dwelling unit kitchen counter surfaces. However, 210.8(B)(3) requires all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in a commercial kitchen to be GFCI-protected.

Temporary installations.
In accordance with 527.6(A) and (B), you should always install GFCI devices on temporary wiring systems to protect workers during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment or similar activities. All 15A, 20A, and 30A, 125V receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure shall be equipped with GFCI protection. If a 15A, 20A, or 30A, 125V receptacle is part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and it is used for temporary electric power, GFCI protection for workers must be provided…..
There is an exception to this rule. In industrial establishments where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor program as specified in 527.6(B)(2) is permitted for only those receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater hazard if power was interrupted or those that have a design that is not compatible with GFCI protection.

 

[N2TORTS]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Copying and pasting is not the same as understanding. At the very least, I would recommend copying and pasting something that is based on the latest edition of the NEC, not something from 2002. The code is revised every few years. Some of this is wrong. You make it seem as though you are referencing the 2013 California Electric Code, but you are not.

You should also give credit to Mike Holt, who actually wrote much of your post.

Since 1971, the NEC has expanded the requirements for ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) to protect anyone who plugs into an electrical system. Initially, it was only required for temporary wiring at construction sites and in dwelling unit bathrooms, but in recent years the Code requirements for GFCI protection have expanded to include many other areas, including commercial occupancies, fountains and swimming pools, and temporary installations, to name a few. Although dwellings older than 20 years are not required to retrofit existing systems in SOME cases.

*****One thing to consider not all States have the same building codes.

CALIFORNIA ELECTRICAL CODE 2013 - Effective Jan. 1 2014
Section 210.8

Dwelling units.
As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However….. there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener….. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.
Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.




Commercial occupancies. Per 210.8, you must install GFCI protection for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in bathrooms, rooftops, and kitchens in commercial/industrial facilities. However…..GFCI protection is not required for receptacles installed outside a commercial or industrial occupancy.
In addition, 210.63 requires you to install a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle outlet within 25 ft of heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The only exception to this rule is that you need not install GFCI protection for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.
Every receptacle installed in kitchens must be GFCI-protected. This new rule sets up an interesting situation. Sec. 210.8(A)(6) for dwelling units only requires GFCI protection for 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed to serve dwelling unit kitchen counter surfaces. However, 210.8(B)(3) requires all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in a commercial kitchen to be GFCI-protected.

Temporary installations.
In accordance with 527.6(A) and (B), you should always install GFCI devices on temporary wiring systems to protect workers during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment or similar activities. All 15A, 20A, and 30A, 125V receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure shall be equipped with GFCI protection. If a 15A, 20A, or 30A, 125V receptacle is part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and it is used for temporary electric power, GFCI protection for workers must be provided…..
There is an exception to this rule. In industrial establishments where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor program as specified in 527.6(B)(2) is permitted for only those receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater hazard if power was interrupted or those that have a design that is not compatible with GFCI protection.

Ahh my little love muffin ..I was waiting for you to pop in ....
here ya go baby ....Mike is sitting right here next to me .. he says hi!


Building Standards Commission - State of California

www.bsc.ca.gov/

2013 California Electrical Code, Part 3 2013 California Mechanical Code, Part 4 2013 California

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Hmm semi still on topic -- in three different counties in California, all with dwellings older than 20 years, I was compelled to have all bathroom and kitchen outlets be GFI's.

Laws aside it is safe, and better. Even these things can fail, but it is one step closer to more safe, than if they are not there.

No matter still, extension cords are intended for temporary use, not long term installations. Another safety issue behind that.

How might that relate to the application as discussed here exactly? - if you do cause substantial damage with a fire, there is no insurance company that will roll over and pay for your illegal installation, in short you will be, in California, criminally liable for costs, and or injures, and or death.

Criminally liable means jail, not just financial ruin. Really, I have attorneys keep me up to date on all these issues related to rentals in California. Lots of exposure dictates lots of 'cover my ***'.

Yeah, these are the extreme of the bad outcome. Seen it happen more than once in my life.

As explained elsewhere I have a bit of a 'my brother's keeper' POV. You can't make an informed choice without information, Yes?

Will

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Re: Out door heating and wireing questions!

I think you need to pay attention to Toms post. It's important to note and the reason I think you should not set up this chamber outside.
Or, Would you be willing to insulate your chamber?

Sent from my TFOapp

 

[N2TORTS]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Safer is always the best ....I agree Mr. Will....just for a side note, interesting enough Home Depot Had a "pig tail" GFI ...for corded applications when working/or use in wet environments....I saw while shopping there today . A very neat idea / application .To honestly say the 20+ years I have been contracting here , the codes are screwy , change all the time and are even different within different counties ( which in a broad scope is the same City) . The bond is no biggie but the Workman’s Comp /liability is at about $22/ per $100 right now. Back in the 80’s - 90’s it was 15 -18 bucks.

---

I think you need to pay attention to Toms post. It's important to note and the reason I think you should not set up this chamber outside.
Or, Would you be willing to insulate your chamber?

Sent from my TFOapp

and your right Heather .... I think I mentioned that as well after reading Tom's post. ( I wonder if I have to Cite that? ) . Just the 3 of us residing in So.Cal and being weary of our cold nights ...I couldn’t even imagine trying to do it in freezing weather. My elec last year during winter months for all the tortoise applications ....huts, hides, incubator is very spendy to say the least.

 

[jaizei]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

I do not think it is too demanding to expect someone to give credit to the person who actually wrote something.

For simplicity, here is a link to a PDF of the CA 2013 code. The relevant section (210.8) is around page 74.

Source for your post. Note the date and the references to the 2002 NEC.

Notice that the current code has fewer exceptions. Anyone familiar with the NEC (upon which many electrical codes are based) knows this. If you are not familiar with current electrical codes, wouldn't it be prudent to not give advice on electrical installations?

Copying and pasting is not the same as understanding. At the very least, I would recommend copying and pasting something that is based on the latest edition of the NEC, not something from 2002. The code is revised every few years. Some of this is wrong. You make it seem as though you are referencing the 2013 California Electric Code, but you are not.

You should also give credit to Mike Holt, who actually wrote much of your post.

Since 1971, the NEC has expanded the requirements for ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCI) to protect anyone who plugs into an electrical system. Initially, it was only required for temporary wiring at construction sites and in dwelling unit bathrooms, but in recent years the Code requirements for GFCI protection have expanded to include many other areas, including commercial occupancies, fountains and swimming pools, and temporary installations, to name a few. Although dwellings older than 20 years are not required to retrofit existing systems in SOME cases.

*****One thing to consider not all States have the same building codes.

CALIFORNIA ELECTRICAL CODE 2013 - Effective Jan. 1 2014
Section 210.8

Dwelling units.
As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.
GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However….. there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener….. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.
Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.




Commercial occupancies. Per 210.8, you must install GFCI protection for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in bathrooms, rooftops, and kitchens in commercial/industrial facilities. However…..GFCI protection is not required for receptacles installed outside a commercial or industrial occupancy.
In addition, 210.63 requires you to install a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle outlet within 25 ft of heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The only exception to this rule is that you need not install GFCI protection for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.
Every receptacle installed in kitchens must be GFCI-protected. This new rule sets up an interesting situation. Sec. 210.8(A)(6) for dwelling units only requires GFCI protection for 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed to serve dwelling unit kitchen counter surfaces. However, 210.8(B)(3) requires all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in a commercial kitchen to be GFCI-protected.

Temporary installations.
In accordance with 527.6(A) and (B), you should always install GFCI devices on temporary wiring systems to protect workers during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment or similar activities. All 15A, 20A, and 30A, 125V receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure shall be equipped with GFCI protection. If a 15A, 20A, or 30A, 125V receptacle is part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and it is used for temporary electric power, GFCI protection for workers must be provided…..
There is an exception to this rule. In industrial establishments where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified personnel are involved, an assured equipment grounding conductor program as specified in 527.6(B)(2) is permitted for only those receptacle outlets used to supply equipment that would create a greater hazard if power was interrupted or those that have a design that is not compatible with GFCI protection.

Ahh my little love muffin ..I was waiting for you to pop in ....
here ya go baby ....Mike is sitting right here next to me .. he says hi!


Building Standards Commission - State of California

www.bsc.ca.gov/

2013 California Electrical Code, Part 3 2013 California Mechanical Code, Part 4 2013 California

 

[luke]

RE: Out door heating and wireing questions!

Thanks for all the useful info everyone. I need to speak with management and go from there.

 

[luke]

Here is an update to my to my outdoor heating project.

I spoke with management at my apt complex about running power to my patio. Since the diameter of the hole would only be 8mm they said its all good.

Let me start by saying this whole project was a pain to complete. I should have started as soon as I moved in last summer because there was a few times when we had rain and the enclosure was out in the patio uncovered and it got wet. By the time I got around to starting I had to throw away the old lid and make a new one, as well as sand out some the the mold that developed on the box itself.

Then, rather then buying some lumber and plywood to build a roof I tired to build it out of and old plank fence that was torn down a couple of years ago. Long story short, it worked but it took a long time.

The plan was to use some extra 2x2 from my father in law as well as some 1/8" hard board from home depot, and then just sandwich the foam between the hard board to make insulation panels. That plan fell thru when they're saw was out of order and they couldnt cut the hard board ( I drive a civic coupe). I had to settle and use 1/4" plywood instead of 1/8" hard board and the panels turned out really heavy and difficult to work with. I did end up buying some hard board later on for the sides and the back. All panels had 3 coats of a water based weather sealer.

I used a 12 foot outdoor extension chord and measured how much I needed to run then I cut it and routed it thru the PVC (conduit) and thru the exterior wall of my apartment. Then I wired it to three prong connector and finally, I ran it thru a portable GFI connector for shock protection.

I'm am pleased with the results tho. The roof is holding up nicely, no leaks, so the box stays dry when its wet. Also the box does not get TOO hot like it did when it was exposed to direct sunlight for hours. The heat and lighting also work great. I have not had any problems with it and I check it all the time because a have a wireless weather probe inside the box that sends info to a display i keep inside. Keeping the box outside is a good ways to keep the humidity up.

One more thing I'd like to mention for anyone out there considering a project like this. Initially I made an insulation panel to cover the top and the front of the enclosure, and I left the sides and the back uncovered. My 240 watt heater definitely had the power to keep the box warm even on cold nights but I decided to make insulation panels because the uncovered inside walls of the enclosure would drip like crazy because of condensation. And there was even a grimy substance that would develop on the walls after a cold night. Adding insulation took care of that and also makes it so that the heater does not run so much. I'm sure I could heat the box with a 100 emitter no problem.

thanks for all the great suggestions.