opinion on domesticated turtles

[Saloli]

Okay I'd like to know what everyone's opinions are on domesticated turtles like hypomelanistic EST or pastel RES for example. I don't mean individuals in populations that carry phenotypic and genotypic mutations like a non fixed amelanistic (not from a true breeding amelanistic line) individual. I mean line bred selectively bred populations (breeds). I tried to make this a poll but I'm not sure how to do it.

 

[Shelly]

Whoa. I forgot to study for the quiz....

 

[Saloli]

Whoa. I forgot to study for the quiz....

huh? quize?

 

[tortoises101]

If you trace your turtle morph back generations and generations you will see that their genes eventually connect with their great-great-great-geat-great-great-great grandmother (or even older) who is of wild origin. Even if you wait for your morphs to grow up, have babies, etc they will still carry the genes of their wild ancestors because they are descended from the same family tree. Besides, turtles have been living for around millions of years and we have only be keeping them for a few decades, which isn't what I would call 'domesticated.'

 

[Saloli]

domesticated means genetically changed due to humans."If you trace your turtle morph back generations and generations you will see that their genes eventually connect with their great-great-great-geat-great-great-great grandmother (or even older) who is of wild origin. Even if you wait for your morphs to grow up, have babies, etc they will still carry the genes of their wild ancestors because they are descended from the same family tree.", you could say the same thing about any domesticated animal be it a fruit fly (like those used to discover DNA and genes) to house cats and dogs or the silver foxes from Russia that were domesticated. the point of this topic was to find out what people think of them to to be completly honest i do not condone selective breeding as is the standing of The Herpetologists' League which officially states "Because the practice does little to advance society’s understanding of amphibian and reptile biology, HL hopes that its members will avoid the capture/purchase and captive breeding of herpetofauna with the express purpose of producing anomalies in body form, coloration or pattern. "

 

[Tom]

That is not the definition of domesticated. There is no chelonian species that I would consider anywhere near domesticated. That would take hundreds if not thousands of years. My daughters great grand children will not see a domesticated turtle or tortoise.

 

[dolfanjack]

I have absolutly no problem breeding for genetic morphs. I do hope however that there will be more people breeding for pure strains be it tortoises, fish, birds, or mammels.

 

[dmmj]

Genetic morphs? are we taking about albino pythons and tortoises, or ones like pie bald pythons, or the panda python?

 

[Saloli]

yes domestication only take a few generations not thousands of years. The primary definition of domesticated is this "to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses; tame." which in biological terms means genetic changes and since most of the morphs (non fixed mutations) and breeds (fixed mutations) would be unlikely to servive in the wild they have thus been converted to human uses (as pets). another example is the domestication of kio which despite what most people think only occured in the 1800's.

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That is not the definition of domesticated. There is no chelonian species that I would consider anywhere near domesticated. That would take hundreds if not thousands of years. My daughters great grand children will not see a domesticated turtle or tortoise.

what is your definition of domesticated? take a look at most sights that sell turtles the morphs that are mass produced are domesticated they breed true in most cases just like any other domesticated animal or plant

 

[Tom]

I don't know where you got your definition, but that is not what any of my bio professors in college or high school taught me. I've never read your definition in any text book. And in my profession, your definition doesn't work either.

Breeding "true" or being a different color has nothing to do with domestication. Its just a selectively bred for trait. Having a trait does mean that a species has been domesticated. There are a lot of species which are somewhat borderline in whether or not the are domesticated. Pigeons, Dromedary camels, the foxes in the Russian fur farms, etc... I've never heard anyone but you make the case that turtle color morphs constitute domestication.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just trying to answer your question based on what a lifetime of biological education has taught me. This is a topic that is frequently discussed in my profession because I get paid more to handle and train "wild" animals vs. "domestic" animals. In other words I get paid one rate to handle dogs, house cats, goats, pigs, horses or cows, and I get paid a higher rate to handle camels, rhinos, elephants, big cats, snakes, tortoises, alligators, bees, roaches, beavers, parrots, etc...

I had a big dispute with a boss years ago because he thought parrots were domesticated and he wanted to pay me the lower domestic animal rate. His argument was that you can buy them in pet stores, so they are domesticated. The argument ceased when I brought it to his attention that if we were to drive four hours to a Vegas pet shop, we could buy monkeys, lions or king cobras. So no, albino burmese and hypo-melanistic RES are not domesticated.

 

[Edna]

I had a big dispute with a boss years ago because he thought parrots were domesticated and he wanted to pay me the lower domestic animal rate. His argument was that you can buy them in pet stores, so they are domesticated. The argument ceased when I brought it to his attention that if we were to drive four hours to a Vegas pet shop, we could buy monkeys, lions or king cobras. So no, albino burmese and hypo-melanistic RES are not domesticated.

LOL That argument could have backfired on you, Tom
I just did a quick search on my doves and found that they have a different species name from what's supposed to be the wild ancestor, and are considered to be domestic. Changes in them go beyond color. Insticts that would keep them alive in the wild are pretty much gone.

 

[Kristina]

I had a big dispute with a boss years ago because he thought parrots were domesticated and he wanted to pay me the lower domestic animal rate. His argument was that you can buy them in pet stores, so they are domesticated. The argument ceased when I brought it to his attention that if we were to drive four hours to a Vegas pet shop, we could buy monkeys, lions or king cobras. So no, albino burmese and hypo-melanistic RES are not domesticated.

LOL That argument could have backfired on you, Tom
I just did a quick search on my doves and found that they have a different species name from what's supposed to be the wild ancestor, and are considered to be domestic. Changes in them go beyond color. Insticts that would keep them alive in the wild are pretty much gone.

Ringnecks have been domesticated for a long time, not only as pets but for food.

Look at Quaker parrots for example though - there are huge wild colonies in FL that are the offspring of escaped pet (or released) Quakers. They do retain the natural instincts to survive and have adapted and reproduced. Let a cow go and see what it does, lol.

I don't consider any reptile domesticated. They don't have the brains for it. Dogs for instance have a different mentality. They are descended from ancestors that ran in packs, had a very specific hierarchy and worked as a group to rear young and hunt. That group cooperation and instinct to look up to a pack leader is what made them an ideal companion to man. We were able to take the place of the Alpha and teach dogs new skills, just like a mother wolf teachers her cubs to hunt and herd prey.

Reptiles, on the other hand, don't live and work in groups. 99.9% of reptiles are solitary, territorial animals, only coming together to breed. Some mothers guard their eggs, mother gators even carry their young to water, but for the most part, newly hatched reptiles are on their own. They aren't nursed and taught and nurtured like a wolf cub. They view others of their own kind as either potential mates, or competition.

Now, as far as genetic mutations go, and survival in the wild - where do you think the genetics for say, Ball Pythons came from? They go out and catch these bush babies, and any that show a deviation from the normal coloration/pattern are singled out and bred together to preserve the genes that caused the abberation.

Albinos in nature exist. Gators, turtles and tortoises, deer, and birds are just a few that I PERSONALLy have seen IN THE WILD with my own two eyes. The albino buck I watched for years. Even with hunters, wolves, bears, lions, and coyotes he survived.

I personally have no problem with breeding for coloration. It harms nothing in my opinion. I have much more issue with crossing subspecies or locales that would not naturally come into contact in the wild, especially in terms of rarer species. They should be kept pure.

 

[Saloli]

the thing is with breeding for color the mutations that cause them are rarely caused by single point mutations, yes there are albinos and such in the wild but they are rare because the stand out. my definition is from one of my professors who studies domestication and evolution. it is also in the dictionary. thats it selectively bred. do you know how a breed is created? there are two or three main ways (depending on if you include transfer genetics). you start with one or two individuals that have a specific trait (assuming it is of genetic and not paragenetic origin) then you breed them with one with simalar phenotype (and pressumably genotype) or with a sibling or parent to increase the chances of them carring the same mutation. this is then repeated over several generations to fix the mutation or mutations. then once the mutation is fixed sometimes less closely related individuals from a different line are crossed into the line (for example to introduce other mutations) the offspring would be considered hybrid (not the same as a interspecies hybrid). oh by the way birds are technically reptiles. but any way the point was not to start an arguement. oh by the way if an animal the is of domesticated origin and escapes or is released and breeds in the wild the offspring are feral.

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oh and my main problem with selective breeding is it reduces genetic diversity. oh and alot of people that selectively breed don't pay much attention to subspecies or local look a the Boa constrictors and Leopard Geckos for example. oh and it's okay with me that we disagree on definitions of domesticated there are alot of words that the definitions vary by who is defining them species for example. disagreement is what fuels most research. though the inablity to define species is a bit of a pain.

 

[Tempest]

Some proofreading and capitalization would serve you well, I think. Might help some of us understand even though we missed the quiz announcement.

the thing is with breeding for color the mutations that cause them are rarely caused by single point mutations, yes there are albinos and such in the wild but they are rare because the stand out. my definition is from one of my professors who studies domestication and evolution. it is also in the dictionary. thats it selectively bred. do you know how a breed is created? there are two or three main ways (depending on if you include transfer genetics). you start with one or two individuals that have a specific trait (assuming it is of genetic and not paragenetic origin) then you breed them with one with simalar phenotype (and pressumably genotype) or with a sibling or parent to increase the chances of them carring the same mutation. this is then repeated over several generations to fix the mutation or mutations. then once the mutation is fixed sometimes less closely related individuals from a different line are crossed into the line (for example to introduce other mutations) the offspring would be considered hybrid (not the same as a interspecies hybrid). oh by the way birds are technically reptiles. but any way the point was not to start an arguement. oh by the way if an animal the is of domesticated origin and escapes or is released and breeds in the wild the offspring are feral.

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oh and my main problem with selective breeding is it reduces genetic diversity. oh and alot of people that selectively breed don't pay much attention to subspecies or local look a the Boa constrictors and Leopard Geckos for example. oh and it's okay with me that we disagree on definitions of domesticated there are alot of words that the definitions vary by who is defining them species for example. disagreement is what fuels most research. though the inablity to define species is a bit of a pain.

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[Terry Allan Hall]

Whoa. I forgot to study for the quiz....

LOL...love your smiling boxie.

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Genetic morphs? are we taking about albino pythons and tortoises, or ones like pie bald pythons, or the panda python?

"All of the above" is my thinking...

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Tom is right. A domestic plant or animal is not only one that has been selectively bred by humans. Rather, a domestic organism is one that has undergone substantial change from the wild type so that it can coexist with humans, and so that it can serve a specific function. So, for example, domestic grains (wheat, rice, corn, etc.) have much larger fruiting bodies than their wild ancestors, so that they will provide more food for human consumption.

In the case of animals, domestication means not only breeding for a certain function (like milk production in cattle, fleece production in sheep, or meat production in swine), but it also means breeding for more docile behavior so that the animal is more cooperative and less dangerous. Specifically, this means breeding for lower levels of adrenalin, so that the animal is less flighty and excitable. This then translates to differences in appearance, since adrenalin also affects color. This is why domestic animals may have floppy ears or piebald (black-and-white) coloration; the reduction in adrenalin not only has made them calmer, but it has also changed the expression of collagen and melanin. Many pets can be line-bred for a certain appearance, such as veil fins in fish, or pale color in reptiles. However, this does not make them domestic, but simply cultivated strains.

With that said, I am generally opposed to greatly altering animals relative to their wild ancestors. Whether it's a dog, a turtle, or a fish, I think animals should not be selectively bred beyond what allows them to live in captivity. The truer you adhere to the wild type, the greater the genetic diversity, and the healthier the morphology. Natural-looking pets are also generally better able to defend themselves if they need to. Also, there is more conservation value in preserving animals in a more natural state. This is why I do not think hybridizing animals is a good idea, either. I think of pet-keeping as a kind of "Noah's Ark" mission, which means animals should have survival value, not just ornamental value.

 

[ascott]

...we as the human species always amazes me. We think that just because we "can" means we "should". After all we humans think that we "know best". Give us a moment to come up with some awful way to muck things up and by gosh we will and call it "progress".

We will mess with things just to say, "hey look what I created" when in all actuality we messed up stuff that was perfectly designed to begin with.

If you don't want to take a chance on being eaten by a shark, stay out of the ocean. If you don't want to take the chance of being biten by a dog, don't live with a dog. If you don't want to take a chance to see the true beauty that surrounds us, then don't go outdoors...don't have to any more, because, well gosh, all of our "progress" makes it possible for us to never have to speak to another of our species, well, unless you want to mate or dominate? I wish we could all just enjoy all of the creatures on the earth and respect and appreciate each for their own design.

I can't imagine changing one single thing about the beautiful Desert Tortoises I have been blessed in knowing...not one color change, not one size change, not one tiny change to their personality...how silly would that be.

Have a beautiful dayl...I am going to go out and act like a tortoise and catch some of the beautiful sun today...Toodles all.