New to Tortoisehood

[RianSeeking]

Hallo, all.

I've been lurking about for a few days and found a wealth of information re: tortoise husbandry. What a wonderful place!

Last month we added a Russian to our menagerie. 'He' is our first tortoise. He seems very friendly and active. We have named him Josh after the young man who pulled him from the pen at Petco and who assured us he was 'roughly a year old'. <twinkles> I have since learned that this is a standard line.

His shell is about four by four. He keeps his tail firmly to one side and because my 8 year old tortoise/turtle lover insists that he must be a boy he will remain so at least in our imaginations.

At the moment Josh lives indoors in a largish tank. He has the standard lights plus two heat pads. He has a water dish and a hide. We have alfalfa pellets as substrate because they seem to retain heat nicely. He does not eat dinner in his tank and he seems uninterested in the pellets themselves.

He pees and poops roughly every three days. I soak him on Mondays and Fridays, and on those same days he gets a calcium supplement.

Josh came to us with a URI and pinworms. I have just finished his injectable course of Baytril. The URI symptoms have lessened but not disappeared. He is on a course of paste for the pinworms. Josh's right hind also seems considerably weaker than his other legs, but this only seems to be a problem if he wants to walk a straight line. <twinkles more>

My biggest question at the moment: Does Josh need to hibernate? There seem to be varying opinions on this one depending on where on the internet I look. Should I hibernate the fellow if he is not fully healthy?

We live in a high desert climate. Spokaloo, Washington State. It will get cold, and we will get snow. As he is inside, however, I can alleviate much of this with manmade heat.

If he does need to hibernate, please can you direct me to a link that might explain how best to do this?

Thank you!

 

[Kristina]

Welcome to the forum!

No, Josh should absolutely not be hibernated. Being that he is not fully healthy, it can very well kill him. Do Russians HAVE to be hibernated? No. Really there is no reason to do this, and it is safer not to.

The only real issue I see with your set up off the bat is the pellets. These are not good for a multitude of reasons. They contain mold spores, and can irritate the respiratory tract. They mold very quickly when they come into contact with moisture, which Josh very much does need. Does he have a water bowl?

Another reason is that they are hard to walk on and cause long term problems with muscles, joints and bones. If Josh already has an "off" leg, he needs a surface that is easier to walk on.

Coconut coir is sold at the petstore in a brick under the names EcoEarth and Bed A Beast, and is suitable, as is also top soil, cypress mulch, or orchid bark. You should only use one of these substrates, in my opinion. I like the topsoil or coco coir (or a mix of the two) for my Russians because they love to dig and burrow. They also need humidity. They spend a lot of time under ground in humid burrows, and this should be replicated. Just because they come from a drier area does not mean they spend all their time in hot, dry conditions.

Does Josh have anywhere to hide? This is also important.

When you say standard lights, can you please be more specific? What are the temperatures in the enclosure? How big is it?

What are you currently feeding Josh?

And again, welcome, and I hope you have many years to enjoy your new friend!

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

KYRYAH has all good points. He needs to stay warm. Good lock with him.

 

[RianSeeking]

Thank you for your quick replies!

kyryah,

How deep should the substrate be to allow Josh enjoyable burrowing? Do you mist your substrate to keep it humid?

Josh is in a 20 gallon tank. He has a 150 W daylight bulb, a 50 W night time bulb, and a 20 W (?) fluorescent. Plus two heating pads attached to the tank sides. The daytime temp is usually 90 F and the night time 75 F.

He has a 'half log' for a hide, and he has a water dish freshened daily. He ignores the water dish completely which worries me some. Yet when he does pee every two or three days he pees rivers and lagoons so I am hoping he is hydrated.

I have been feeding him organic greens from the grocery store, mostly dandelion greens, cabbage and spring mix. He turned up his nose at pear.

He spends most of his 'tank day' in his hide and the night against one heat pad. Exercise is usually taken outside his tank. This consists mostly of making mouth movements and neck vibrations in my general direction followed by trundling about until he can find the nearest warm radiator. As I live in an old house, there are plenty of radiators for Josh to explore under.

He feeds in the evenings on the hearth. I read somewhere that twenty minutes of constant feeding a day keeps a tortoise from getting too chunky. Is this a valid and healthy theory?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Rianseeking:

Welcome to the forum!! (May we know your name?)

 

[RianSeeking]

(May we know your name?)

Holy Moses! Twenty years on the internet and this is the first time anyone has asked my name so quickly and efficiently.

<suspicious>

What do you plan to do with my name? Greet me by it? Use it to answer pertinent questions? Wish me a good day?

Heavens, your tortoise people must be...*normal*.

Rian will do. Thank you, Yvonne, for the kind welcome.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Rian:

I kinda' sorta' figured it was Rian, but didn't want to use that in my greeting and end up with egg on my face!

(Has the 'net been around for 20 years?)

 

[tortoisenerd]

Welcome to the group and congrats on the tort! Take a look at russiantortoise.org

1. I'd try to return the tank (and much of the other "junk" the pet store had you buy) and get a large Rubbermaid type plastic container, or build a tort table (wood box). A 4 inch Russian would thrive in something closer to 6 sq ft. The xmas tree storage plastic tubs are great. If you show us some photos of Josh we might be able to guess if he's full grown yet (if not, very close to it, as males tend to be 4-6 inches for adult size).

2. The best thing you can do is have your tort live outside when the weather allows. For indoor housing, you need a good UVB bulb like a Mercury Vapor Bulb (all in one heat, light, and UVB which closely mimics the amount of UVB from the sun). I would ditch the heat pads. With that small of a tank, you are likely overheating the tort, and heat from below like that from heat pads is unnatural for a tort. You want to aim for a gradient from about 70 to 95 F, so the tort can move around and thermoregulate. You don't need any heat at night when you turn off the lights as long as your house is above 60 F. If your house is colder than 60/65 F, then yes the red bulb (or even better, a ceramic heat emitter) is appropriate to make it between 60 and 70 F. If you get a MVB, you replace it yearly and just need the one ceramic socket hood fixture and a lamp stand. With a tube UVB like you have, they barely have any UVB output and need to be replaced every 6 months, plus us a bulb for light. You need an accurate thermometer like a temp gun to measure temperatures. Temperature is one of the most important thing with torts because too hot or too cold and they won't thrive...right now I will guess your tort is too hot. They will either be running around like crazy, or not moving around, when its too hot like that.

3. You need a hide in each temperature zone, at least three total (one near the 95 F basking spot, one moderate, and one in the coolest spot in the enclosure). You can use anything from your half log (make sure the tort isn't climbing it...those can be dangerous actually) to a cardboard box, tupperware, or a pile of timothy hay. Many tort products can be found outside a pet store (hides, food/water dishes, enclosures, light fixtures, substrates).

4. For substrate, the alfalfa pellets are hard for the tort to walk on (why you might see dragging of back legs, as the muscles can't keep their strength), can be dangerous if ingested (they will absorb all the moisture in the tummy), and actually too absorbent. Some great alternatives are aspen (not a wood mix--pine and cedar are toxic--you can get the rodent aspen flakes, or the snake aspen shavings, which I prefer--shop around for a good deal as Petco charges an insane amount for this), coconut coir (you keep this slightly moist, adding water and mixing it up, but not wet--you will need to up the heat with a moist substrate more than a dry substrate), and cypress mulch. Other poor choices to avoid besides the alfalfa, pine, and cedar, are rodent paper substrates, paper towels, newspaper, corn cob, and sand.

5. Ensure the water dish is large and shallow. They need to be able to safely get in and out of it completely. Yes, the average tort will ignore it. Since they have a tendency in captivity to be dehydrated, placing the tort in the dish (I like to make the water baby bath warm, and keep it in a moderate temp in the enclosure to help this a bit) can help. Others like to do a "force soak", where they place the tort in a tub of shallow water for 10-15 minutes. If the tort is peeing, this is a good sign. I will also moisten the greens to help with hydration. Don't be alarmed if you see white chunks in the pee--this is urates.

6. The organic greens like spring mix are good (but no spinach or chard, which are high in oxalic acid, which binds to calcium), same with any chemical free weeds like the dandelions, or other greens like collard, mustard, endive, watercress, radish, turnip, etc. Small amounts (like < 5% of the diet) of treats like edible organic flowers (if you have a source for these such as growing them yourself, or some supermarkets sell an expensive little plastic container of these by the herbs), pumpkin (even canned but not the pie filling with sugar), butternut squash, and optunia cactus pads. No fruit, no cabbage or starchy type greens, no veggies except the squash/pumpkin treats, etc. Best plan is to grow your own graze of broadleaf weeds and greens. You can even buy some seeds online. They can also eat the leaves of any veggie except tomato (in the nightshade family). Grape leaves are another favorite. Browse the forum for some other ideas. A varied diet is important. I will feed my tort daily as much as he wants to eat. If your tort is not growing and overweight, then you might want to think about limiting food. Most important thing though is plenty of space to exercise. Captive torts fed high calorie diets (those colored pellets are horrible) and kept in small enclosures will tend to get fat. I would not limit the food to a specific time or amount unless you know the tort is full grown and overweight. Feed on a slate tile or similar surface which keeps the food off the substrate. Avoid pellet foods unless you decide to feed a very small amount of Mazuri or Grassland, both of which are better choices but not a substitute for fresh food. The tile is great because it naturally wears down the beak and nails. Here is a chart that can give you an idea too:



7. Please don't let your tortoise roam the house. An enclosure should be large enough such that the tort can get exercise (or, if weather allows, which I know isn't often where you area--I live in Seattle, put the tort in a safe outdoor pen not more than a few times the size of the indoor enclosure, with a hide and water). Too many dangers such as cold temps and drafts (your observation of hiding under a radiator), ingesting hair or pet food or such, and it is frightening for the tort (they will hide under objects and run around like crazy because of fear and not being safe in their home). When you see the tort's neck and arms moving with their breathing, this means fear. If you limit handling until the tort settles in some (and even then, a tort is not a pet to be handled, but observed), your tort will be much more friendly. Over time you should be able to approach the tort and pick it up without it trying to retreat into the shell and make a hissing noise from the air escaping the lungs.

8. A pure calcium supplement sprinkled over the food every other or every third day is appropriate at your tort's age/size (no D3 and no vitamin supplements).

9. There is no reason you ever need to hibernate a tort. Doing it incorrectly will cause more harm than good. Just keep the tort at "summer" temps year round, also known as over-wintering.

10. That is great you have already had vet care for the tort, but a bummer Josh is sick (as most wild caught imported torts, sadly enough). Its important to get repeat fecal tests for parasites every 6-12 months (after getting one a few weeks after finishing the pinworm treatment). Parasites will tend to lie dormant and then come back, even without exposure to new ones. Untreated and in high numbers they can be dangerous, especially when combined with another illness like an infection. What URI symptoms are still present, and how long since you finished the Baytril? Sometimes those "symptoms" are just stress, and sometimes the infection is resistant to the medications. Its important for you (and/or your vet) to know which one so you don't either over treat or under treat. Having your tort established at a good tort vet is important in case of emergencies, same with having some money set aside, as vet bills can be expensive.

Good luck! We love photos of torts and enclosures.

 

[RianSeeking]

(Has the 'net been around for 20 years?)

Yvonne, I fudged a bit. I was on Compuserve roughly twenty years ago. The forums were entirely text based and dial up, but it was definitely an internet precursor.

Kate, thank you so much for your detailed help. I have printed out your post and will tomorrow go on a hunt for Josh Improvements. Am I to assume that the MVB provides 'basking' at the hot end (i.e. directly under the lamp) and then the we have mid heat and cool heat the farther away from the lamp we go?

Josh seems fairly calm when handled, head out, looking about, no hissing. But as the URI might be an indication of stress levels, I will refrain from letting him wander the house. I know I go stir crazy in the winter and am probably anthropomorphizing the fellow when I assume he might like a change of scenery.

What URI symptoms are still present, and how long since you finished the Baytril?

I gave Josh his last of four Baytril shots on Wednesday. He has clear runny discharge from one nostril and very occasional sneezing.

I will try to charge my camera and post a picture or two this afternoon or evening.

 

[Floof]

Great, great advice so far. I only want to add a few things.

To start, the MVB--the most recommended brands are MegaRay and T-Rex Active UVHeat. PowerSun does the job, too, if you can't find the other two. Make SURE to get a lamp stand, or at least jerry-rig some way to have the lamp hanging straight down. Having it at an angle will damage the bulb. The bulb should also be around 18" from the basking spot, give or take, but definitely no closer than 1 ft from the floor of the enclosure because it can cause eye problems if kept too close.

And the enclosure... A 20 gallon tank is only 30x12 inches of floor space (even less if you mean a 20 gallon "regular"--I'm just assuming you mean the 20 gallon "longs" sold in the "reptile" section). A whopping 2-1/2 feet of floor space. WAY, WAY, WAY too small for any tortoise, most especially your 4" Russian. You need to fix that as soon as humanly possible. If you can find a large storage tub (the xmas tree tubs by Iris, measuring about 4x1.5 ft floorspace, or 6 sq ft were mentioned earlier--don't know if stores are stocking them yet, though), that will work great at least for now. Another option that will give more space (approx 6x2 ft, or 12 sq ft) would be to find a cheap or free 5-shelf bookcase, get a smallish tarp, and staple the tarp into the assembled bookcase (ditch the shelves, of course). Just lay the modified bookcase on its back, add dirt, and you have a nice new enclosure--easy as pie. You can also make your own custom "tort table" with plywood or the like if you're handy, but these are just the "easy" fixes... Keep in mind, the bigger you can make the enclosure, the better! Healthy tortoises are very active. After all, all they do in the wild is walk all day!

Kate mentioned outdoor time. Letting your tortoise roam a secure outdoor enclosure on warm, sunny days is a fantastic idea. Natural sunlight is very good for them--much stronger than any artificial UVB bulb. And if your yard has a patch of dandelions, plantain, or other edible weeds, I'm sure Josh would LOVE to mow 'em down for you! I've never heard of your town, but, since you say you're in a desert climate, I'm guessing you're in Eastern Washington? From what I understand, the eastern half stays much warmer, sunnier, and DRIER than Western Washington, so outdoor time during the summer should be very easy to pull off. When I lived on the coast of Western Washington (even wetter and often cloudier than Seattle), my Russians had no problems going out to roam the yard so long as it was above 70 (wet day), above 65 (dry/overcast) or above 60 (sunny), and even relished the chance to get out and roam. With Josh being ill at the moment, though, I wouldn't put him outside in any wet or cold conditions, since cold conditions, especially cold and wet conditions, can aggravate the URI.

Hope this is helpful to you, and welcome to the forum!!!

 

[egyptiandan]

Welcome to the forum Rian

You've gotten some great advice already If you have any other questions just ask.

Danny

 

[jensgotfaith]

Welcome Rian!!!

 

[RianSeeking]

Josh's Album

Upon getting out the measuring tape he is actually larger than I imagined, more 5 by 5. So perhaps he is a she.

 

[Kristina]

When you measure a tortoise, you measure flat in a straight line from front to back of the shell, not up and over the curve. It is called "straight carapace length" or often abbreviated as SCL. The easiest way to do that is to lay a hard ruler on the floor next to them.

We would need a shot of Josh's tail and underside (plastron) to know for sure - but, based on my own Russians and how round Josh is, I would say that there is a possibility that you have a Joshette Honestly, even males can be over 5" SCL, so size alone is not an indication. It has to do with how long the tail is, whether or not there is a "hook" at the end of the tail, where the cloaca is located in relation to length of the tail, and whether or not the plastron is concave.

---

Also I want to add that Josh is a beautiful little wild caught Russian, probably between 3 and 6 years old. Definitely NOT a yearling

 

[Floof]

Lovely tort!

If you get pictures of his tail and his underside (by his back legs), we should be able to tell you whether he's male or female. You mentioned earlier that he keeps his tail tucked to the side? That generally suggests male, due to their large tails.

Males get to be 4-6 inches SCL (straight carapace length), roughly. My male was 5.5" SCL and full grown. Females get larger (6-8 inches or so)... My female was young and still growing at 6.5". I notice, too, that you're measuring his shell with the curve. You should measure it straight. There's a thread around here somewhere that shows how to do this accurately... Ah, here it is: http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-to-measure-your-tortoise

If it helps you get an idea of what sex your tortoise is, and what to take a picture of, here's the "sexing" pictures of my male and female RTs. I don't even know how to begin describing the differences between the preanal scutes (the pieces on the plastron [belly] just before the tail), but the differences should be pretty obvious in the pictures. You can see in these pictures, too, what area to take a picture of to help us sex Josh.
First the male: http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/CrazyReptileLady/OldTorts/P8270368.jpg In this photo, you can see his very large tail (tucked to the side, of course) and, to a small extent, his concave belly.
Then the female: http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/CrazyReptileLady/OldTorts/P8270356.jpg As you can see, her tail is small and her plastron is flat.

---

Ah, Kristina beat me to it!

I see she mentions roundness maybe being an indicator, though. I don't pretend to know more (even as much as) Kristina by any means, but my observations greatly contrast her suggestion. My male was very round--almost as wide as he was long--where my female was quite oblong, being much longer than wide. I think my male was something like 5.5x4.5 inches, and my female was more like 6.5x4.5 inches, give or take since I only measured their widths once and can't remember the exact numbers.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Isa]

Welcome to the forum

 

[tortoisenerd]

Cute tort! From what I can see, the shell is in great shape. Josh appears to still be growing a bit (the light/white growth rings). Yes, a MVB will have the basking spot directly under it, and the further you go the cooler it gets. Your enclosure should be large enough that some of it will not be under the gradient from the MVB, so will be at room temperature. If your room temperature is less than 70 F during the day, and you have a large enclosure, you may need to add a ceramic heat emitter to one side of the MVB to have a second gradient of sorts (no use having parts of the enclosure too cold for the tort to use at under 70 F). Letting a tort roam is also a bad idea because once they get a taste of "freedom", they aren't content in their enclosure. Get an adequate size enclosure and let him settle in and you may see an entirely different personality.

Great tips on the MVB...I think that's the only thing I didn't go into detail about lol. You can get ceramic socket hood fixtures (you want deep and wide, like 10 inch diameter if you can find it) at either pet stores (usually black color) or home improvement stores (usually silver color). ZooMed sells some great lamp stands. You don't want to clamp these to the side of the enclosure. You want secure and easily adjustable, as every couple days you need to check the temps with a temp gun and adjust the bulb up or down if needed (even if your house temp stays the same with a thermostat, changes in humidity even will change the enclosure temp). You will want to order the MVB online. You won't find the Mega Ray or T-Rex Active UV Heat in any store, although Petco sells the 100 Watt Powersun for about $80-90 ($50 online)! Remember these last a year and are the best your money can buy...tort ownership does not come cheap.

Here's how I would prioritize, as I know this may seem overwhelming (hope you don't think we're picking on you--sometimes we all can be a little too helpful, but we mean well):

1. Make sure you aren't cooking your tort...if the entire enclosure is 90, this is not good...turn off the heat pads and you can even move the bulbs right to the edge of the enclosure so much of their heat is out of the enclosure, or raise them if possible. You may be able to ditch the red bulb if house is over 60 F at night. Make sure the tube UVB is the correct distance above the tort (consult the box).
2. Larger enclosure with a new substrate...you really can't go too big. Do watch the height, as you need to have enough height for about 6 inches of substrate ideally, and for the tort to not climb up on the log and get out (so you are looking at 12 inch height at a bare minimum). Making the enclosure too short is a common mistake, which then doesn't allow you to be able to use as much substrate--and Russians love to dig! Coconut coir or aspen shavings are easy to pick up at pet stores, organic potting soil or cypress mulch at home improvement stores.
3. Obtain a MVB, ceramic socket hood fixture, lamp stand, temp gun, and adjust the gradient to 70-95 F day and 60-70 F night; put on your calendar to replace the MVB prior to one year (earlier the better)
4. Ensure water & food dishes are appropriate, and there are enough hides in different temperature zones
5. Long term diet, which may include wanting to grow items or collect chemical free weeds, with pure calcium supplementation every 2-3 days, focusing on variety over time

Good luck, Rian!

 

[RianSeeking]

Thank you, everyone. I am definitely not feeling picked on, do not worry.

I can use all the help I can get and plan to go out tomorrow armed with a list of Things Needed.

Here is a picture of Josh's nether regions. <amused> He did not approve at all, so the picture is a trifle blurry.

Upside Down Josh


This Newbie's best guess is that Josh is female. What do you think? Do I get points?

 

[Floof]

The tail and pre-anal scutes definitely look female! It's still possible that "he" is still young and hasn't grown into his tail yet, but it's definitely looking like "Josh" is, indeed, a "Joshette."

Now let's see if the "experts" agree with us!

 

[Kristina]

You betcha, Josh is a girl

Since you aren't running a breeding operation, I wouldn't worry about it. Just don't share that info with your son, and Josh can continue being Josh, lol.

Lucky you to have gotten a girl - that is the same subspecies that I have, and I haven't been able to find any more girls