New Sulcata Rescue Starting Up

[Yvonne G]

I'm a little worried about the no yard inspection thing too.

A couple years ago, when Maggie was still living here, we made an appointment to go do a yard inspection on a sulcata adoption. The folks were extremely nice folks, and gave me no reason to suspect they wouldn't be good tortoise-keepers. When we got to the house, we were amazed that these people would think a tortoise could live in their back yard. There was a path through the junk, but no actual grass or weeds. All there was in the back yard was junk...washing machines, sewing machines, old car bodies, motors...a regular junk yard.

Would you like to see a tortoise trying to live like that? Yes, they can go out and buy one, but then its not your responsibility anymore. They can buy whatever they want to. But it IS your responsibility when the tortoise is coming from YOU. If you are going to call yourself a rescue, then you have to have the tortoise's best interest at heart. And it is in his best interest to make sure you place him in a safe environment.

 

[TylerStewart]

I'm a little worried about the no yard inspection thing too.

A couple years ago, when Maggie was still living here, we made an appointment to go do a yard inspection on a sulcata adoption. The folks were extremely nice folks, and gave me no reason to suspect they wouldn't be good tortoise-keepers. When we got to the house, we were amazed that these people would think a tortoise could live in their back yard. There was a path through the junk, but no actual grass or weeds. All there was in the back yard was junk...washing machines, sewing machines, old car bodies, motors...a regular junk yard.

If I remember right, didn't you also say that you have only denied one house for a tortoise inspection? It was similar to what you just described, so I assume it was that same one.

Really, we will call it a rescue because we are happy and willing to take in unwanted tortoises from bad situations, or to relieve other rescues that can't handle them. We aren't a rescue because we make the "outgoing" process complicated. The AZ guy was "adopting" his "rescued" torts for $5 per pound. I would guess that if I showed up with $500, I could have walked out of there with a 100 pound male sulcata without a contract or an inspection - and he's a non-profit! The ones that give them out free just make it so complicated that they end up moving tortoises out very slowly. We aim to eliminate both of these problems, without messing with donations of money or a non profit status we can plaster across the front of our website. If it can't fund itself, it will be funded by TortoiseSupply.com. Either way, the tortoises will be in great care which should be everyone's goal.

 

[Missy]

Wow you guys are great for doing this. So will you be shipping torts? I agree that it can be a head ache to get a tort from some rescues. I am sure you guys will be giving out care sheets and a contact # and of course this forum right? I do see your point about not having time for home visits and that it might turn some people off but I think making sure that they have a good set-up before they take one home would be the right thing. I would not think asking someone to show a pic of where they intend on keeping the tort would be to much to ask and then that would give you the chance to advise them on what is lacking. Looking forward to watching your rescue progress.

 

[brendanjames]

I started one a few months ago called Scales With Tales here in North Texas. I would love to partner or help in anyway I can.


Thanks
Brendan

 

[Angi]

I agree with Missy. Maybe have them show pictures of where they will keep it and the set up. That is not too much to ask. I am sure you guys will do a great job of informing the new owners of the tortoises needs. Good luck and let me know if I can do anything to help

 

[pebblelu]

I think what you guys are doing is great. I know I would not get a pet from a rescue organization just because of the yard or house inspection.
Now if I could go to a rescue and get one with out all that I would be happy to pay them the adoption instead of the pet store.
I for one do not like people coming over to inspect my setup, Now if it was some one I know and trusted that would be a different story.
Sorry for rambling but I think its great what your doing.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

I'm a little worried about the no yard inspection thing too.

A couple years ago, when Maggie was still living here, we made an appointment to go do a yard inspection on a sulcata adoption. The folks were extremely nice folks, and gave me no reason to suspect they wouldn't be good tortoise-keepers. When we got to the house, we were amazed that these people would think a tortoise could live in their back yard. There was a path through the junk, but no actual grass or weeds. All there was in the back yard was junk...washing machines, sewing machines, old car bodies, motors...a regular junk yard.

Would you like to see a tortoise trying to live like that? Yes, they can go out and buy one, but then its not your responsibility anymore. They can buy whatever they want to. But it IS your responsibility when the tortoise is coming from YOU. If you are going to call yourself a rescue, then you have to have the tortoise's best interest at heart. And it is in his best interest to make sure you place him in a safe environment.

Again, I agree. Once you rescue the animal, it is your responsibility to place the animal in a good home.

We had a very similar situation with a potential home for one of our dogs. Even the application looked fine, but the housecheck.... we denied. The yard was small, but okay.... however, the inside of the house was disgusting beyond believe. Old newspapers, trash, etc. in piles ALL over the floor. There was not a clean spot in the house, nor any room for a dog, let alone a single human to live comfortably.

If you were just stating that there is no Sulcata over population, how to do plan to find these Sulcatas to rescue and adopt out?

 

[TylerStewart]

Further note about the home/yard inspections - thinking about it today, what really is there to stop someone from having you go inspect his buddy's house or friend's house then just take the tortoise somewhere else? The people with the junkyard behind their house could just have a friend call a week later, send a rescue over there to inspect, then pick the tortoise up the next day if they really wanted to. People aren't dumb, and people know how to work the system. If they know that having a dog is going to make them fail an inspection, they'll send the dog next door for 15 minutes until the inspection is over. I understand the idea of a home inspection - I'm not saying it's a bad intention or idea, I just don't think it solves any problems.

Even if someone signs a contract that they will keep the tortoise or give it back to the rescue, is a rescue supposed to go peek over their wall every 6 months and make sure it's there? Call them every 6 months and ask?

Sorry, I will leave this type of small talk to my official press secretary, Tom.

Thanks for the offers for help, I just don't see how we will need any, particularly in the next 6 months.

EDIT:

If you were just stating that there is no Sulcata over population, how to do plan to find these Sulcatas to rescue and adopt out?

I still do not believe that there is a large population of sulcatas anywhere out there that need a place to go. Sure, there's probably rescues where they are piled up. If they changed their efforts and strategy to find them homes, they wouldn't be piling up. We will offer to relieve them some of that pressure, and if they choose not to send any to us for any reason, that's their decision to make and I'm not going to complain.

I don't plan to actively go out knocking door to door begging for tortoises to take in. When I see or hear of some out there that someone can't handle, we will offer them a temporary home for them with us until we find an owner. I don't expect to have very many tortoises in this situation.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

Further note about the home/yard inspections - thinking about it today, what really is there to stop someone from having you go inspect his buddy's house or friend's house then just take the tortoise somewhere else? The people with the junkyard behind their house could just have a friend call a week later, send a rescue over there to inspect, then pick the tortoise up the next day if they really wanted to. People aren't dumb, and people know how to work the system. If they know that having a dog is going to make them fail an inspection, they'll send the dog next door for 15 minutes until the inspection is over. I understand the idea of a home inspection - I'm not saying it's a bad intention or idea, I just don't think it solves any problems.

Even if someone signs a contract that they will keep the tortoise or give it back to the rescue, is a rescue supposed to go peek over their wall every 6 months and make sure it's there? Call them every 6 months and ask?

Sorry, I will leave this type of small talk to my official press secretary, Tom.

Thanks for the offers for help, I just don't see how we will need any, particularly in the next 6 months.

EDIT:

If you were just stating that there is no Sulcata over population, how to do plan to find these Sulcatas to rescue and adopt out?

I still do not believe that there is a large population of sulcatas anywhere out there that need a place to go. Sure, there's probably rescues where they are piled up. If they changed their efforts and strategy to find them homes, they wouldn't be piling up. We will offer to relieve them some of that pressure, and if they choose not to send any to us for any reason, that's their decision to make and I'm not going to complain.

I don't plan to actively go out knocking door to door begging for tortoises to take in. When I see or hear of some out there that someone can't handle, we will offer them a temporary home for them with us until we find an owner. I don't expect to have very many tortoises in this situation.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but in regards to your comment about switching yards/houses for dogs/torotises just for the adoption, then the animal going back to the crappy yard/home after the rescue leaves, that is where the contract comes in to play. The adopter states their address on the contract, and that is where the animal should be living. Also, if you carefully screen your homes, you will have severely less of a risk of shady people looking to trick you and bother with switching homes for the housecheck.

Again, I am not sure how many torotise rescues work, but with my rescue, we ALWAYS keep in good relations with our adopters, so they are MORE THAN HAPPY to send us updates, pictures, etc. of the dog they adopted from us, as well as coming to us if any issues arise, etc.-- We do not need to go snooping around for updates... our adopters are more than happy to share them if asked... and also if not asked. We just recieved a 1 year adoption anniversary email from an adopter, with a nice email and pictures of her and the dog on many fun vacations (San Fran, Joshua Tree, the beach, etc., etc.). We did not ask for that email, but by keeping in good relations with our adopters, it is easy to keep up to date on our dogs. By staying friendly, and screening homes so you know they are good homes, your adopters should be more than happy to keep you posted. All of our adopters are friendly with our rescue, and always thank us for bringing such a wonderful companion into their lives/families.

In our contract, we state that the dog can not be given away to another rescue, shelter, group, individual, etc. This is for the safety of the animal, as we carefully screen and place our dogs in the best homes for their needs. This also prevents the dog from going back to the shelter (and possibly be killed), to an individual who can not care for the dog properly (some dogs have special needs, special medical issues, behavioral issues, etc.).

So again, the contract and the housecheck help. I hope you will atleast take the advice of asking for pictures of the enclosure.

 

[dmmj]

How legally enforceable are those contracts? I seem to remember a couple of years ago a dog rescue with ellen degeneres who gave a dog she got from a rescue away, and they had a contract with her, and I seem to recall them not being able to do anything about it.

 

[jackrat]

Tom,Tyler,I think something like this is overdue!Cudos to the both of you.I'm stuck down here in the deep South,but if there's anything I can do to help,don't hesitate to call on me.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

How legally enforceable are those contracts? I seem to remember a couple of years ago a dog rescue with ellen degeneres who gave a dog she got from a rescue away, and they had a contract with her, and I seem to recall them not being able to do anything about it.

One of our adopters was a couple who were both in law school, they really helped us fix up our contract to help stand up in court more (if ever needed). I am not sure what Ellen signed in regards to her contract, but I would imagine if the contract was written properly (no loopholes), it would stand up in court over the crazy individual trying to fight it.

Our contracts are very precise and explanatory, while still easy to understand so the adopter knows exactly what he/she is signing and agreeing to.

If you want to see it I can PM it to you.

 

[TylerStewart]

Again, the housechecks are not something we are going to do. Like I mentioned before, I will never have time to do it. I'm certainly not going to make my wife do it. She already spends most of her day with our own tortoises or on the phone helping out people with their tortoise questions. There are simply too many reasons why I think it's un-needed on my end and I know without a doubt that it will slow down our ability to find them homes. Even with a contract, how do you enforce that? How do you know anything if someone doesn't want to cooperate after they took in a tortoise? I understand that everyone hopes for the best, and there will likely be very happy people sending photos, but there will also likely be lots of people that want a big tortoise, that don't want strings attached in any way. I understand it from their point of view, as I would be the same way. Tom recently skipped the chance to adopt for this same reason. I just don't see the point of sitting someone down in the awkward moment of signing a contract when they know as well as I do that the paper is better used as toilet paper.

Every tortoise that leaves will go to seemingly good homes and will come with all the care info they need. Maybe even a book if I'm feeling spendy. If other rescues don't like the approach we are going to take and don't want to send tortoises our way, again, that's fine with me. We will be there for the tortoises in need, whether the humans screw up the process or not.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

Well, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Tom]

How legally enforceable are those contracts? I seem to remember a couple of years ago a dog rescue with ellen degeneres who gave a dog she got from a rescue away, and they had a contract with her, and I seem to recall them not being able to do anything about it.

This is a good point, but for me its just the hassle of them trying to enforce it. I don't want to miss a day of work to go to court to deal with some ridiculous BS, even if it will be dismissed.

If I get in a car wreck in 10 years and I'm unable to care for my torts, Its MY business who I give them to and nobody else's. If I come across somebody who is a good person and wants to give a great home to a tortoise, I don't want some "rescue" contract interfering with what is best for the tortoise. If a rescue wants to keep so much control of their animals, then reasonable people, like me, are going to say no thanks, as I have, and get them somewhere else without all the strings attached. The rescues wouldn't have any stockpiled sulcatas if they didn't have any strings attached.

---

Tom,Tyler,I think something like this is overdue!Cudos to the both of you.I'm stuck down here in the deep South,but if there's anything I can do to help,don't hesitate to call on me.

Want to drive all over the country hauling tortoises?

...for free...

 

[tortoiserescue]

Well whatever you do, make sure they have enough room, they never feed fruit, feed every second or third day, that white in the poop is fine and that when their male flower comes out, don't panic. Buying pig blankets and radiant heat panels from www.beanfarm.com are essential in your climate and no stupid heat lamps.

Care sheet attached, View attachment Sulcata care sheet 2009.docSusan American Tortoise Rescue.

 

[chadk]

I think the real name of the site should be www.tortoiseflippers.com. It is just like the craigslist flippers who look for something for free, then flip it for a few bucks profit.

I think other 'rescues' are more like tortoise 'sanctuaries', where they hord torts with no real intention of finding them homes (they are probably those who tend to say "rescues are full").

Not saying I have an issue with either approach. Just thinking out loud...

---

Well whatever you do, make sure they have enough room, they never feed fruit, feed every second or third day, that white in the poop is fine and that when their male flower comes out, don't panic. Buying pig blankets and radiant heat panels from www.beanfarm.com are essential in your climate and no stupid heat lamps.

Care sheet attached, Susan American Tortoise Rescue.

Well, you have to define "enough room"...

Never say never... even regarding fruit...

Feeding every second or third day??? So depending on how you look at it... I either feed mine everyday all day, or I feed them once every few weeks... Basically mine eat grass and weeds they have access to 24x7 if they want. I don't HAVE to offer anything else, but I do here and there - mainly stuff from my garden, or a few straberries, water mellon, or ther rare treat.

"essential in your climate"... Whose climate???? Heat lamps work fine in many situations, as can a CHE.

Also, your caresheet should note the idea that dehydration and humidity may play a role in pyramiding. As it reads, it blames it all on diet...

And the idea that hot and dry is essential is something to be careful with. Too many folks put their young tort in a glass tank with dry substrate and hot heat lamps thinking along those lines... (that they come from the hottest most dry parts of Africa) They fail to realize that torts should also have a cool retreat and humid hide.

Also, the diet section may need some tweaking. For example, Kale, Spinach, Iceburg lettuce CAN be fed as part of a healthy diet.

 

[TylerStewart]

I think the real name of the site should be www.tortoiseflippers.com. It is just like the craigslist flippers who look for something for free, then flip it for a few bucks profit.

There's a few key, but major differences. We are not going to go looking for something for free. We will sit in wait until the next person comes complaining that there's no homes for them. When that happens, we will offer to take them in. If they decide against it, that's their decision.

Other major difference is we are not "selling" them for almost anything at all besides basically enough to cover the costs of the website it takes to offer them and maybe the cost of de-worming. I have already assumed I'll be feeding them out of pocket. There will be no $300 tortoises offered for an "adoption." If I go out and buy a tortoise with the intent to resell it, it will be offered on my retail site.

I don't really see how this could be a money making idea. I don't need it to make money. As much as anything, it will demonstrate the lack of an overpopulation, since it will probably be empty most of the time.

 

[chadk]

OK, I take it back then

 

[Tom]

Well whatever you do, make sure they have enough room, they never feed fruit, feed every second or third day, that white in the poop is fine and that when their male flower comes out, don't panic. Buying pig blankets and radiant heat panels from www.beanfarm.com are essential in your climate and no stupid heat lamps.

Care sheet attached, Susan American Tortoise Rescue.

Hey thanks for the advice. Your care sheet is great... if it were still 1990. A lot has been learned since you and the people you cited wrote those care sheets. You are doing people a disservice by spreading incorrect and outdated information.

Pyramiding has nothing to do with protein and everything to do with the dry desert conditions you are promoting.

There is plenty of proof available on this. Here is just one thread, if you are interested:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding?highlight=The+End+Of+Pyramiding