New owners of Russian tort, few questions!

[Niffer10]

Hi all,
We've recently got a Russian horsefield tortoise, we got him because he was being kept in a small viv and felt really sorry for him. My boyfriend's made an open top enclosure, we've got a heat lamp one side at approx 35degrees and a UVB light on the other side with temp about 20 degrees (celsius) I've seen a lot of conflicting things about humidity, I've seen a few sites saying 60, but a few saying 30? Any help on this would be much appreciated. Also seen a lot of conflicting things on diet, he loves dandelion leaves so we've been giving him a fair few those and clover. He loves kale and red pepper but I've read kale should be once a week really and pepper as a treat. Also that romaine lettuce should be once a week. We try to keep some variety with a choice of foods, rose petals when we can. I've found it hard to find weeds bar dandelion and clover that are ok for him, or found it hard to identify them any tips on this would be brilliant. I haven't found any chicory yet. Can they eat standard garden grass!?
Poor little guy had a respiratory infection when we got him too but he's got his last dose of antibiotics today and seems to be much better, no sneezes for a few days now! Any advice would be brilliant there seems to be so much online it's hard to know what's 'right' thanks very much! Jenny

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Ps he's called Darwin

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Jenny:

Russian tortoises will eat grass, but they seem to prefer the broad-leaf weeds and ground covers, like clover, dichondra, dandelion, etc. Good for you for taking in a tortoise in need, especially one that required medication. I'm glad he's gotten better. I'd love to see some pictures of him and his home.

 

[The Speedmister]

On food, my Russian Tortoise eats a wide variety. Kale contains oxalic acid, which stops calcium being digested, so that should not be fed often. As for pepper ( I assume sweet), Russians cannot tolerate the acids and sugars in sweet fruits and veg - so that is probably a no in the long run. Romaine can be fed more often than once a week - mine eats in every three or so days. It is iceberg you need to watch, because the water content is not great. Probably just don't feed it at all.

Great food is: white chicory (when you can find some), Romaine (cos) lettuce, clover, dichondra, daisy, dandelion (particularly leaves), cucumber (occasionally), types of raddiccio, any baby leaf salad bags and a cuttlefish bone available for calcium. For more food options, go to: http://www.russiantortoise.org/ . . . it's a great side dedicated to Russian Tortoises.

 

[Niffer10]

Thank you both of you as soon as I read kale isn't ok all the time I stopped giving it to him so he won't be having any more for ages! He had romaine lettuce yesterday so will give him
More Tuesday. Will try some daisies tomorrow too, he loves dandelion leafs but not so keen on the flowers. Got cuttlebone yesterday so sprinkled a bit on his food today because he didn't seem too interested. I'll try and upload a picture of him. Apparently he's two, is there a good way to
Know for sure? Thanks again

 

[dmmj]

Here is what U feed my russians (3) (short list) Hibiscus leaves and flowers, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, radish tops, dandelion both leaves and flower, artichoke leaves (from the plant), st augustine grass, rose petals, squash/watermelon/zucchini leaves and flowers, strawberry leaves and the tops of strawberries, and once a month they will get a carrot or some squash as a treat depending on what I have growing at the moment.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Welcome to the group and congrats on the new addition! Darwin is a cute name. Thats so great you did the vet visit. If it hasn't already been done, I'd suggest you get the vet to check his poop for parasites. All torts have them, but in large amounts, they aren't good (especially in combo with other illnesses). Its a cheap test once you have a vet established. I'd do a follow up test after 3-4 months as the first test can miss any that are dormant (and the numbers are cyclic), then yearly. I also do vet check ups yearly but most would say that is overkill.

Although growing organic tort food is the best way to go (they can eat the leaves of just about any fruit or veggie plant except nightshade plants like tomato, weeds, broadleaf plants, lettuces, flowers, etc), I don't have the means to do so. The weeds and such from your garden are great as part of a varied diet as long as they are chemical free. Clover and dandelion greens are both higher in oxalic acid, so thats why I say as part of a varied diet (the lettuces, flowers, etc, are low). There are some websites that give photos of weeds with names, such as http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=az&l=all, but yes, it can be frustrating.

Some russians like grass (more so if they are hungry and its all you offer lol), but its very rare. They prefer the broadleaf weeds. Oxalic acid prevents calcium absorption and can cause health problems like stones. You want to use a pure calcium powder supplement (no D3) over the food. Once you find our your tort's age, here are my suggestions on the frequency (opinions vary): daily for hatchlings, every other day for yearlings/juveniles, and every few days for adults unless an egg laying female.

Here's my Russian diet plan: About 60% good lettuces. I buy spring mix, baby lettuce mix, etc. I buy organic and look for the most variety (rotating brands over time). I pick out the spinach and red chard (Google image search to see what they are) and put them in my family's salad, as they are quite high in oxalic acid. You get the best deal buying the lettuce mixes as you get much more variety than i head of lettuce. Then, about 35% greens. I buy 1-2 heads of organic greens a week, some of which are higher in oxalic acid (but not as much as spinach or chard) or is a goitrogen like kale: mustard greens, collard greens, radish greens, turnip greens, dandelion greens, mache/lamb's lettuce, arugula, escarole, endive, kale (less frequently...some of the organic stores have a "brazing mix" where you can buy a small amount by the pound instead of a head of it), lettuces not in the spring mix, frisee to get the greener stuff than in the spring mix and extra since its my tort's favorite, etc. 5% treats like organic flowers, squash, pumpkin, or a good commercial diet such as Grassland or Mazuri. This is what I came up with to maximize variety but minimize cost and waste.

You might find a combo of grocery store and weeds is good until you can plant some seeds to get more variety. There are some great resources online to buy seeds for torts like russians. You can put them in a pot or in an area of your yard you want to devote to an outdoor tort pen (pull them from the ground to feed if its too cold for your tort to graze outdoors). I'd buy safe foods that you don't already have growing or could easily get from a grocery store.

As must time as you can get the tort outside is best. You should have a temp gradient from about 70 to 95 F (22 to 35 C) available to the tort, mostly in the 80s F (27 to 32 C), where they spend most of their day when not basking (35 C) or cooling down (22 C). Make sure you have hides in each temperature zone (at least three, more for a large enclosure...they can be cardboard or plastic containers, fake or real plants, half log, bucket on its side, etc). I would suggest a Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB), which provides UVB closest to the level of the sun, heat, and light. They last 12 months instead of the 6 months like all other UVB bulbs. You can use one fixture instead of 3, so I found them cheaper in addition to being much better for the tort. If its a larger enclosure, you probably need more heat than the one heat bulb for the gradient. Ways to be more efficient with heat are to put the tort enclosure in the warmest part of the house, avoid putting it against an outside wall, raise it up off the floor as much as you can, and you can even go so far as to cover parts of the enclosure (but not over/under bulbs).

If you can show us tort and enclosure photos its always helpful. See: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-to-post-pictures-in-your-forum-posts--5245#axzz1Lo0ITTD8. I like to use postimage.org and paste the IMG code. You can see if it works by previewing your post before posting it.

We might be able to guesstimate on age and give you a confirmation of sex if the tort is old enough. For a sex determination, we need a photo of the backside and one of the underbelly (plastron). I say guesstimate as they all grow at different rates. For example, they grow faster in captivity than in the wild. Full grown Russians are about 4-6 inches for males and 7-11 inches for females.

My tort is two years and 9 months and he is 4.5 inches. I like to track his weight and Straight Carapace Length (of the shell, straight line not curved over the top) monthly to see if he is growing at a steady pace, and to compare to the Jackson Ratio chart for Russians (you can use it as a ballpark as to if your tort is underweight, average, or overweight). I would never limit food for a growing tort though...I like to feed once daily and let him pick at it. I do however have a stipulation for that: you provide sufficient space to exercise, and its a close to natural diet (low calorie).

We can guess on age due to size and the condition of the shell. Pet stores will often say the tort is younger than it is to make sales, will repeat what the manager said (may be a lie), or not know and make something up (again 1-2 years old is a common response to them). Not to say 2 years is wrong, but I wouldn't take their word 100%! Good luck and hope to see you around here soon.

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...by the way, chicory looks very similar to dandelion greens (most U.S. grocery stores sell chicory but label it dandelion greens). I love using Google image search to go from name to photo.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Jenny:

If Darwin's original owner bought him at a pet store, then chances are pretty good he's older than two. For some reason, most pet stores tell their customers that the Russian tortoises they sell are babies, while they usually are pretty much full grown...young, but full grown. We can give you an estimate of his age once we see a picture.

 

[Niffer10]

Thank you everyone you've all been brilliant! I think he was a present for somebody so not sure where he is orginally from, I'll get some pictures up of his behind tonight to see about sexing, and I'm looking at the weed webiste now, luckily we've got quite a few fields and things near us so I'll have toi go scouting! The previous owners had got their advice from somebody at a bird farm, sure he's great with lizards, but he told them he should have wood chip/ a vivarium/ main diet of food pellets/ sneezing apparently normal! So I wouldn't trust his judgement at all, since looking on the net all I've seen is that those things are the worst things you could do for a tort!
I work quite long hours, but as soon as I get home I get him outside weather permitting and on the weekends we have him out as much as we can. We let him wander around on the floor too, we do worry about him getting bored.
The enclosure we've got him in is heaps better but we'd still like something about 5 times the size, just space is an issue at the moment, as soon as we move out he can have a mansion! I know it's still not ideal, but if we didn't have him the poor thing would be in a vivarium for the rest of his days! I've been keeping a record of what I've been feeding him for the past few days to make sure we're giving him variety, keeping lots of notes of what is good for him to eat a lot of and what is good in moderation. I've hopefully uploaded a photo so let us know what you thinkl. We just want him to be happy! We thought much cheaper than a baby!!

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pictures of our little man!
We know he could do with much more room but it's a mansion compared to what he had before!

 

[Niffer10]

more pics including one of his behind

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, they were right in telling you he's young. He is still to small to guess at his age. Right now its looking female, but most babies look female.

Have you measured the temperature on the floor of his habitat? It looks like your light is pretty high up and maybe not providing the correct heat at floor level.

 

[Mean Guy]

I don't think your tort is a poor little guy, but it looks rather young so probably too early to tell for sure. Other more experienced members may be able to tell you for sure.

[Edit] Stupid slow server... Sorry Ems, lol.

 

[Niffer10]

oh my gosh! I don't know what we'll call her if he's a girl! That sounds strange lol. How old would you say he is approximately? It's 33degrees c on the floor, 20 the other side, we're going to try and frost the glass too, read that can stress them out. He seems content though he's good at climbing on top of his log, is it ok to let him slide down!? It doesn't seem to bother him and I guess in the wild or outside they'd clamber on what they want. I've posted a new thread asking for expert opinion on sex so maybe someone will know! Thanks guys

 

[tortoisenerd]

I used to have a half log in my enclosure but my tort would also slide down it...sometimes flipping on his back! They can't breathe wlel on their backs, and especially under heat, its dangerous. I'd take the log out and put containers, plants, or other hides in...one in each temperature zone so your tort has a safe place all over the enclosure. I particularly like the fake plants as they don't take up a lot of floor space, but some tort prefer an enclosed container type hide--even a cardboard box can work! I like using a slate tile for food in a corner to wear down the beak and nails and keep the food away from the substrate. Have you seen the tort climb in and out of that water? If you have problems with temps, picking it up off the floor will help a few degrees.

 

[Niffer10]

Oh my goodness, I don't want her doing that! We've made sure that it's in a postition that she couldn't get stuck 'down the side' of it kind of thing, but might have to get some cardboard hideys for her instead, We saw loads of plants at the garden centre but wasn't sure if they'd be safe, are they the same ones you'd put in fish tanks?
Ah that's a good idea, we've got a variety of pebbles at the moment as we couldn't find any slate, we've got quite a large patio which I let her have a daily stroll around.The substrate we've got has calcium mixed in with it and we've got dust free hemp bedding 'especially for tortoises it says' she doesn't seem to be having any problems with it, but would you suggest anything different? I've seen her get in and out once, when I get home there seems to be less water though so not sure if she's drinking it? We give her a bath 2/3 times a week. Sometimes she climbs in but I don't see her drink. What do you have your humidity at? We've seen 60, but I read that 40 is better somewhere yesterday.
Thanks Kate

 

[ChiKat]

Looks like a female to me, but I'm not an expert My [almost] 2-year old male seems to be a similar size, and he looks all boy to me...his tail is getting freakishly long

 

[Niffer10]

Oh thanks for that Katie! Can really see the difference between the tails so I think we'll have to settle on Dotty for now She was so cute this morning, I woke up and turned her light on and she poked her head out to say hello

 

[tortoisenerd]

Substrate with calcium in it...is that calci-sand? Not a good choice. A pure calcium supplement on the food every other day or so is needed. I would also not use hemp. Both sand and hemp can lead to impaction if the tort eats it, more readily than other recommended substrates. Calci-sand is especially bad as some animals find it tasty, so they eat more of it than just accidental ingestion. Your photo looks like shredded aspen though? I use aspen (not a wood mix, pine, cedar, etc), which is a dry bedding. Others like cypress mulch, coconut coir, organic soil, etc, which are to be kept moist typically. An older Russian doesn't have very high humidity needs (say compared to a hatchling Sulcata or a redfoot), but it comes down to if you think they need the humidity. Typically the humidity is adjusted to match the climate, a lot of times to prevent pyramiding.

Temps are way more important than humidity in my opinion for a Russian...you just don't want very high nor very low...somewhere more moderate. I have a damp and cold climate so its very tough to keep substrate both moist and warm...dry is easier. I think with a Russian you have that choice. If you do add humidity (mixing in water as needed to keep it moist), watch the temps extra close, as they will drop (you will need to lower bulbs to add heat accordingly). I think an accurate thermometer like a temp gun is a great investment in your tort's well-being. With the prior respiratory infection, you want to avoid cold and damp (similar to bumping up the temps 5 deg or so may help with respiratory infection symptoms, although not a substitute for going to a vet).

Pet stores unfortunately sell all sorts of junk marketed to certain animals. I'd also avoid any plants from a garden center as they have pesticides. I'd prefer to grow from seeds, or if you can find an organic plant, thats ok. A plant meant for human consumption (veggies or whatever, not a bush or flower plant though) might be ok, but personally I feed my tort organic, so I'd still avoid it. I choose organic because he eats almost 100% greens and stuff, way more than we do, and he also eats a large quantity compared to his size, so I worry that the chemicals could be too much. The flowers and stuff from nurserys are the big concern though, as they are not meant to eat. The systemic pesticides can stay in the plant for a year, even after washing and/or re-planting.

I just wanted to make sure you've seen the tortoise use the water as the lip looked a bit high, but photos can be deceiving. I wouldn't change it if you've seen her manage it. I got a single slate tile (ceramic or whatever else is fine) at a home improvement store for about $2. It is important to keep food away from substrate so they don't ingest it, however you do it. I like the tile as it wears down the beak & nails, cheap, large surface for them to push the food around on (although lots still ends up all over the enclosure for us!), and easy to wash. We use a timer for the lights so it stays nice and consistent every day, 14 hours (although some like to change the day length based on time of year).