New Owner Questions about our Golden Greek Hermes

[Enoyls]

Greetings

We have a new Golden Greek Tortoise that is my son's newest pet. He named him Hermes. I have a few questions and was wondering if the wisdom of the masses could help me out.

Hermes is fairly active for a tortoise, he climbs and wanders around, sleeps randomly but mostly all night, and loves Red Leaf Lettuce. My son is really enjoying having him as a pet.

I built an outdoor enclosure next to our garden that he is in during the day. We live near Atlanta, GA so temps are 85-95+ F during the day right now and around 75-80 F at night. For inside, we have an indoor 48gal aquarium for him with heat lamp and ambient light lamp, hidey log and water bowl, and its next to a window for natural daylight.

My first question is, should I just leave him outside most of the time or continue to bring him in at night? In the mornings I have noticed him with a snotty nose or the random snot bubble but only in the mornings when he wakes up. I never see them when he's outside and waking up. This has me wondering if the transition from outside to inside daily is making him stuffy and snotty.
If it rains should we worry about him outside providing the enclosure has proper drainage and cover (which is does)?

Next question, his diet. We feed him Red Leaf Lettuce (which he loves) and mix in Mustard Greens sprinkling calcium supplement on it about twice a week. How much and often should he be fed really? He seems to randomly finish the pile of food one day and leave some the next. He seems to eat both in the morning and in the evening.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. I look forward to your opinions and experience sharing.

Regards

Enoyls (Shawn)

 

[Seiryu]

Hello welcome!

I do not have a greek, so I can only comment on some things.

Mustard greens. They have Medium amounts of Oxalates (bad in large quantities and sometimes even bad in medium quantities). It is not something that should be fed everyday, but more like once a week with other greens.

I would also feed him more variety as others will tell you as well. I am not sure if Spring Mix is OK for Greeks (but I imagine it is). It has a lot of things that are great for most, if not all torts. And has a great variety. It can be found at most produce stores. I have Meijers and Krogers here that have it.

 

[Crazy1]

Hi Shawn welcom to the forum. Goldens should be in temps at night of about 70. If it is damp and/or below they will become "snotty". I live in So. CA our nighttime temps right now are about 70 days 95-108 Mine are kept outside. My almost yearling is kept inside.

I would not keep a tort in an aquarium near a window. It gets way too hot and the Ultra Violet Rays do not pass through glass. You will need a UVB light for the winter months or when you can not have him outside daily.

Some questions: How large is your golden? How long have you had it? How much does it weigh?
can you post pics of the tort (carapace (looking down on it from above), belly shot, tail shot and face shot) and of its enclosure?

Diet: your golden needs a variety. No you do not have to feed him different things every day but I would mix it up use collards, spring mix, redleaf lettuse (as a treat) escrole, endive, I also grow alot of food like hybiscus (which they love flowers and leaves) mallow, wandering jew, geranium, rose leaf and flower, squash blossoms, cactus, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, etc. There is a list under the food section that has a long-long list of foods.

 

[Enoyls]

Yeah, he doesn't seem to like the Mustard Greens as much and we've cut back on those. I'll scale them back to occasional. He devours the Red Leaf Lettuce. I'll check on the Spring Mix, I can go any direction from my house and hit a Kroger (or Walmart) within 5 miles (both convenient and sad)

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Seiryu]

I actually found a great website (at least in terms of Oxalates).

http://www.branwen.com/rowan/oxalate.htm

Forgot to add it to my post. it has Vegetables, fruits, plants etc etc on there in terms of how much each have. You'd want to stay more in the lows, ocassional mediums and never or very rarely the high ones.

 

[Enoyls]

Hi Robyn, I'll gather some pics to post them.
Last I weighed him (and I'm calling him a him, not sure really) he weighed 14oz, he was just at 13oz when we got him.

Pics and stats to come....

---

Here you go Robyn,

How large is your golden?
He's about 4.5 inches across

How long have you had it?
We've had him about a month now

How much does it weigh?
Weighs a little over 14oz (396.89 gram)

Posted a gallery of the requested pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnrhill/sets/72157621451330566/

At night our house is probably around 76-78 F (we have the air set on 77), In Georgia as they say, its not the heat, its the humidity. Where as other areas of the country have a dry heat we have a very humid heat. I will be getting a mini weather station to put in the back yard to help me better track the temp/humidity around the outdoor enclosure.

I'm thinking he might be fine outside at night unless its a monsoon type downpour like we get sometimes. It gets down to the low-mid 70's on average lately.

Thanks for your input and help

 

[Crazy1]

He looks like my Ajax which is Antakyan/Jordanian cross T.g. graeca Antakyan have the 5h vertebral scute larger than the third one.
Not a Golden which is T.g. Terrestris. I would say you have a Antakyan or Antakyan cross. My Antakyan are very orange in color like yours is. The Antakyan does not need the higher temps of the Golden. His bubbly or snotty nose may be from a RI or stress. If he sounds raspy or his breathing seems labored I would take him to a vet. Egyptiandan (Danny) will hopefully give us the final determination on his subspecies..
It is a male

Heat/UVB Light
The heat bulb is fine for winter daytime use but you will need a night time heat source. I recommend a ceramic heat emitter because they do not put off any light and they last much, much longer than an infrared bulb. However the initial cost is more. So if you want to keep your initial cost down I’d suggest a infrared or black light for night time heat. You need a UVB of about 8 instead of the 2 you have. So you are running two 2s but I would suggest one 8. Florescent are only good for about 6 months. A Mercury Vapor bulb of about 100 watt would fulfill your heat and UVB needs during the winter days.

In his outside enclosure you need an a water supply large enough for him to get into and soak and yet shallow enough for him to easily get in and out of., preferably in a shaded area. Perhaps some shade cloth over an end of the enclosure. Planting some things like daylily’s or just setting them in his outside enclosure like spider plants still in pots will give him more hiding/shaded areas He also could use a hide outside.

Please move his aquarium away from the window as it can cause them to heat up fast. And literally become an oven for your tort.

As far as being outside at night just remember warm and wet OK. Cold and wet Very Bad. My Greeks are put outside for the summer as long as the night time temps are about 62-65. The golden does not go out until the night time temps are closer to 70. Or I bring her in at night. If you place a hide in his enclosure you can place some straw-dry hay inside so he can burrow into it, it will help with the fluctuations in temps.

 

[egyptiandan]

It's looking more like a light colored Jordanian greek to me Robyn as the 2 scutes seem to be the same length, but could be a cross (Antakyan/Jordanian) also.

You've gotten some great advice already.

Danny

 

[Enoyls]

Thanks for all the great information! This is a lot to absorb and adjust too. I'll read and read your post and make the necessary adjustments for Hermes.

On the "snotty" nose issue. I hardly hear him breathing, he seems to breath fine and I get the hiss/grunt when I pick him up which I interpret as his way of saying "HEY! STOP IT!" He usually relaxes once he realizes what's going on and enjoys when I rub his chin gently. Our chocolate lab Cassie is just captivated with him but keeps her distance sniffing like a vacuum cleaner when we take him in and out. Don't worry, there is a nice fence between Hermes and Cassie when both are in the back yard.

Temps for my area on the 5 day forcast show a high/low of W 92/72, Th 88/70, F 84/68, Sat 84/64, Sun 84/64 which is about normal for this time of hear, we have hot days and not-so-hot-but-still-hot days and fairly cool nights once the sun is down for awhile. They say in Georgia, if you don't like the weather, just wait a few min. Do you think these temps, with an avg humity of 50% are ok to leave him outside fulltime barring cold spells and/or monsoons?

My wife and I were talking today about moving Hermes from my Sons room to my Study across the hall. Its the warmer of all the rooms in the house due to the computer equipment and its the most "environmentally stable" room. This will solve the window problem too.

Its not easy to spot in the outdoor enclosure but there is a low clear water dish that he can get in and out of and we've seen him soaking in it a time or two. He likes to hide in the lower corner where the taller grass is. I will add another "room" section and increase the corner covers to allow him more privacy and hidey holes. I'll get some straw as well.

I noticed you also mentioned rose leaves and petals, are there any particular varieties? My wife has this monstrous rose vine in the garden so I might just have an all he can eat buffet handy with variety of course.

ReptiCon is going to be in our town at the Gwinnett County Fair Grounds on Aug 1-2 and I'm taking my son. We can probably find some good deals and stuff there for Hermes too.

Thanks again for all the great information. I'll keep digesting it and make the changes you recommend.

Shawn

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Enoyls:

to the forum!!

Yvonne

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi and welcome to the forum!

The hissing noise may be the air quickly escaping his lungs as he retreats into the shell.

All roses are fine as far as I know. They must have had no pesticides or fertilizer (organic is the only type allowed) in the past 12 months.

What are the temperatures in the indoor enclosure, high and low, during the hottest part of the day? I really worry about it being by the window and I would make that the first priority. Aquariums can become ovens with low humidity, and also tend to be one temperature vs. having a gradient for the tort to thermoregulate in. Windows can also be very drafty. Also make sure he is furthest away from the heat/air vent as you can. It is easier to control the temperature in the enclosure this way, and is a little less drying and drafty.

At his age you may want to up the calcium to more days of the week than not, a fine sprinkling (a salt shaker works great). You can also have a cuttlebone in the enclosure for him to munch when he gets the craving for calcium. I would weight and measure his Straight Carapace Length (SCL) weekly or monthly to track growth. With enough exercise, you probably don't have to worry about overfeeding. With little activity, you would have to think about this though. I would just make sure that he looks and feels right for the shell, has smooth growth, no fat pudges, feels like a rock of the same size, etc. Some say to only feed as much as the tort can eat in 20 minutes a day but that hasn't worked for my tort as he's slow. With lots of exercise most seem to do fine when a reasonable amount of food is offered. My tort's appetite also changes day to day.

I would take him to a vet for a checkup regardless of health status. It's great to get a second opinion, have him tested for parasites, and have a vet established for emergencies.

Those temperatures sound fine. You want to have a nighttime temperature drop, so that's good. Hot and wet/rain (with shelter available) is ok, but cold and wet is not.

Spring mix with one or two types of greens added (plus whatever you have organic in the yard) is great variety. Don't let him get hooked on one food. I feed mustard greens more often than the other poster mentioned. I think it depends more what percentage they are of the diet. They may be one third of my tort's diet for as long as they are fresh. I haven't noticed any problems with the oxalic acid. Many tort greens have higher oxalic acid contents, but I am just careful to to feed more than one of the higher content greens at a time (such as collard greens, mustard greens, etc). Mustard greens are one of my tort's favorites. If there are enough healthy food the tort likes (enough to provide variety) I'd only feed those. For example, my tort likes enough healthy stuff I don't both feeding the stuff he doesn't like as much.

Sounds like you're doing a great job!

 

[Enoyls]

The hissing makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

The Rose vine is growing in our Herb Garden and we've never treated it with any sort of pesticide or fertilizer. Its pretty much a well established herb garden thats been growing for the past 8 years. Sounds like we have a Winner on the Buffet front

I'll make notes of the temps tomorrow. This is a small window and only gets Sun up to about lunchtime then its shaded the rest of the day. Before we started putting him outside I would see him in front of the window a lot looking out and enjoying the sunshine. Temp inside if I remember correctly was in the high 80s - low 90s but I'll confirm tomorrow.

We have a cuttlebone in there for him but he's not taken an interest in it as of yet, we'll keep up the ReptiCal sprinkles and up their frequency a bit.

I'll start a log of his growth and track these measurements. I thought of the Weight and have a scale but didn't think of the measurement.

I have a friend that is a Vet, I have reached out to her to see if she does Tortoises or if she has a recommendation for a Tort Vet

We don't get "cold" here until October usually but I'm going to place a sensor out at the outside enclosure to monitor and chart the temp/humidity changes over time.

I have a container of Spring Mix that was for us but has now been repurposed to Hermes Food I'll work in some of the Roses and get a good Variety mix together of all the great suggestions everyone is making.

I'm learning a lot from everyone sharing their experiences so far.

Thanks so much!

 

[tortoisenerd]

Is there any spot in the indoor enclosure cooler than the high 80s? He needs a spot 80 deg or below in my opinion to cool down in....similar to a shaded area outside. That is the problem with the glass tanks, as it is difficult to creat a temperature gradient. I think this also needs to be addressed right away.

The more the cuttlebone sits the more likely the tort is to eat it--the fishy smell will go away, and there instinct will eventually kick in. Sometimes it takes months!

You definitely do want a tot vet. Sometimes a tort seeing a regular vet can even be deadly as they may not know what medications can be very dangerous to torts (toxic), as well as the general care.

You can usually find all sorts of great weather data online by your zip code--high &low temperatures for each day of each year, etc. Sounds like fun though!

 

[Enoyls]

I checked last night and his tank and his indoor enclosure was about 75 F. He likes to hide in his log when he sleeps in there. I'm going to check the tank throughout the day and will report its temperatures.

I had heard that the cuttlebone could sit for days/weeks/months before he got around to it so we'll just keep it sitting there for when he's ready

I'm definitely going to find a good tort vet, I'm pretty sure my friend thats a vet won't be specialized enough to see Hermes but she'll let me know people she would trust to take him too. I'll probably meet a few at Repticon as well. I'm looking forward to that convention to meet more tort people and gather more information.

I'm a techno geek so any chance to put in a new tech toy gives me an excuse to geek-out GA Weather is so spotty and unpredictable at times that I want to trust a local device and chart for more precision and I'll use weather.com for general expectations and last min planning

 

[Enoyls]

Woke up this morning to find Hermes chilling out in the water dish, he looks up at me like "yo, what's up?" LOL

So far today the temp of the indoor enclosure has stayed around 80 F but that's with no lights on since Hermes is outside enjoying the nice sunny day.

As of about 11:30am EST each day the window is not in full sun. Even with full sun in this morning I'm not seeing the temp rise much over 80.

Remote sensor out at the outdoor enclosure is currently at 94.4 F and he has some nice shade in his hidey hole by the grass and his water dish if he wants to chill out again.

Gave him some Spring Mix earlier, will go check and see how he liked it in a bit.

 

[Crazy1]

Shawn sounds like you are doing a stellar job with Hermes and is care. RE cuttle bone. some of my torts have never eaten it but I keep it in there anyways, just in case. If nothing else gives them a place to sit or poo on that's different LOL. And just for my own curiosity when you get a chance could you post a pic of Hermes from the back. showing his 5th and third vertebral scutes? I want to see if the 5th is larger than the third. If it is he has Antakyan in him if not hes Jordanian.

 

[tortoisenerd]

So do you not use lighting/heating when Hermes is in the indoor enclosure? That is better. What you describe is probably fine. If he's getting the UVB outside then I guess he doesn't need any indoors! I have heard of people having the typical lighting plus the sun by the window so that is when you need to worry. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions! Sounds like he's having a great time. I bet he loved the spring mix but am excited for your report. Haven't heard of a tort yet who doesn't love it...

 

[Enoyls]

Updated Flickr Gallery with new pics for Identification

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnrhill/sets/72157621451330566/

Hermes indoor enclosure seems to be sticking around 80 F. At night, until I can get a heating pad, I'm leaving the ReptiGlo 2.0 light on. He sometimes sleeps in a corner or mostly in his hidey log. Temp and Humidity are staying pretty constant.

Temp sensor at his outdoor enclosure yesterday got to 100.4 the went back down. First thing this morning it was reading 74 F

He's really loving the Spring Mix. Thanks so much for that suggestion. I added in some Collards this morning and will give him a rose bush treat later to see how he likes that.

 

[Crazy1]

Well I had all my thoughts organized and typed and then a power outage and poof they were gone.
So I’ll try it again.
Thanks for posting more pics. That 5th vertebral scute is close. Too close for me to call if Danny looks in again maybe he could look at the new pics and let us know.

Shawn, I would not use a heating pad. Torts don’t seem to be able to sense temps with there plastrons very well and if the pad gets too hot it can cause burns. The light-heat source should be from above.
I would turn off your florescent bulb (all visible light). Torts need a day/night cycle so they need light during the daytime and dark at night. They also need the temps to drop at night just as they do outside. We just have to control how much they drop. Right now my torts are outside 24/7 Yesterdays temps were day 102, night 68, and humidity 69%.

Here are some nice care sheet for Greeks. Ignore infor on hibernation your greek won’t hibernate. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/iberacare.htm
http://www.pettortoise.co.uk/tortoise_care_sheet.php

I am so glad he is loving the spring mix. It’s always a good place to start.

Here are some good sites for information on lighting
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-health/reptile-natural-artificial-light.aspx


Here is a good place to get weather info including temp humidity and UVB index just type in your zip.
http://www.weatherforyou.com/cgibin...y=06071&zone=caz048&nc=forecast,pands,country

 

[Enoyls]

Hi Robyn

I'll nix the pad idea I'll probably have to add a 2nd lamp for the winter months to maintain the temp at appropriate levels. Our house stays around 80 F inside during the summer months but in the winter we run it much cooler to save on gas. I'll probably relocate Hermes indoor enclosure to my Study since its the warmest room and easiest to temp control.

Outside I'm seeing similar temps to yours. 101 F daytime high and 71-74 F nights right now. Barring a monsoon flooding rain I think we'll start leaving him outside. He seems to like it out there. Found him awake this morning staring out the window so I think he was trying to tell me something

Those are awesome links. There are so many out there I've been hesitant to trust what I find until someone with experience makes a recommendation.

Do you (or anyone else) have an enclosure like the indoor one listed here: http://www.pettortoise.co.uk/tortoise_care_sheet.php

I'm fairly handy so I can make just about anything. The only thing missing on that site is a size point of reference or measurements.

The link to the Tortoise Diary software is pretty cool as well. I'm on a Mac though so I'll dig for a Mac version of similar software or just run it in a VM.

Thanks for all the wonderful advice, I'm learning a ton from all your help and links.