More Forstens!

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tortadise

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Anthony P said:
Wow, you are not slowing down. Very cool Kelly. These look great!
No sir. Not stopping. If I have room, or can make room, I will add. Added 14 quarantine pens this past weekend in fact for some manouria, kinixys, and these guys. I have made some bad collection decisions in the past. I will not make the same this time. I had so many pyxis in the early 2000's and now have none. Same with forstenii. I build, I keep, I will endure. I feel a major change coming in the future years. Whether US bans or not, that wont stop international, taboo, or illegal trade of threatened species. Forstenii may be still rather common amongst a vast of their range but, soon they will be much more difficult, or near impossible to obtain in the US. I did the same with travancorica years back, along with many other species unfortunately.
 

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tortadise said:
Anthony P said:
Wow, you are not slowing down. Very cool Kelly. These look great!
No sir. Not stopping. If I have room, or can make room, I will add. Added 14 quarantine pens this past weekend in fact for some manouria, kinixys, and these guys. I have made some bad collection decisions in the past. I will not make the same this time. I had so many pyxis in the early 2000's and now have none. Same with forstenii. I build, I keep, I will endure. I feel a major change coming in the future years. Whether US bans or not, that wont stop international, taboo, or illegal trade of threatened species. Forstenii may be still rather common amongst a vast of their range but, soon they will be much more difficult, or near impossible to obtain in the US. I did the same with travancorica years back, along with many other species unfortunately.
I'll tell you if I ever got rich I would love to have Speckled Padloper as well as my Greeks. :)
 

Benjamin

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EricIvins said:
Anthony P said:
tortadise said:
Yeah I took the plung big time to set up a good diverse colony of future guys. 5 bloodlines so far. Hoping for more to add too. These guys are in need of serious conservation and captive breeding. Ben has done an outstanding job. I hope to follow in his foot steps with these guys.
True that.. It's ridiculous that these guys are still imported. At Hamburg in April, there were 9 adults in a crate with Cuora amboininsis, Emydura subglubosa and some Hingebacks. Why buy from filthy dealers like that when you can get such healthy CB hatchlings from great breeders?

Obviously, you don't want to wait if you don't have to, but I personally consider it a "have to," situation.
So you want to see these animals disappear in the private sector? There aren't enough people working with Forstens to keep them viable if new animals aren't brought in over the next few years. Once those people that are producing them now disappear, that is it. I can't tell you the multitude of species that have been lost to Herpetoculture because very few continued on with them. Things change, and the animals that are here are the only animals we have. With a species like Forsteni, Sulcataization will never occur. The other problem is the low number of viable Male to Female ratio. The few I know that are actively working with Forstens have very few Males. Once they go, bye bye trying to furthur the species in captivity.

You also seen one example. Does that apply to everyone else?

I will also say this, and contrary to popular belief, these animals are still common. They will be traded whether you or the American public like it. Yes, they are consumed. Not in the numbers everyone has been led to believe though. Generally any Indotestudo are considered low budget for table fare. The cultures that do consume Chelonians favor other species.

Either way, these animals are not coming out of Sulawesi in large numbers. The max I can get per month would be 8 animals, and that is a stretch. I have been waiting since January for the group I just brought in. Just an FYI....
Please elaborate on the species being"common", this is very contrary to anything I have ever heard? There are enough animals in participating cooperation to ensure a "viable population for the next 100 years", using standard scientific calculation.
A few animals imported annually certainly would not be a terrible event. Why is it so difficult to import them? There has been an export quota of roughly 400 animals yearly for the last decade, correct?
With the small number of ova deposited annually, and "nature's odds" how do you suppose a chelonian species can withstand a large harvest of adults/subadults and continue to remain a viable population? Has ther been a range extension recently? Are the few/scant published papers regarding indotestudo forstenii that bias?
I guarantee I will not be"losine interest" in I.forstenii anytime soon. I am more than a decade in and with selective breeding/incubation I will continue to have a "viable" population for generations to come, not to mention I have a few very enthusiastic children who have known the species their entire live..
I keep an appropriate number of males. Generally folks are not managing this species correctly. I have produced nearly 100 cb I.forstenii over the past decade, and have a very good grasp on TSD with the species. Not too bad for a species that will produce 1-5 hatchlings per year.
 

tortadise

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Very well put Ben. I believe the overall synopsis of this species along with many other pertains to the immediate or close proximity of the "future" of its species, and relative location. For instance. Kinixys homeana/erosa. Limited or "data deficient" states to me a serious issue withing quantified numbers in the wild. Given the nature of authorities and their purpose in counting(estimating) numbers of wild specimens is very limited because og hostilities on natural ranges. The natural range for such sp. Is so dangerous (per risk analysis) to the IUCN. They deem unfit for "inconclusive" data. Well the countries of "non risk" that conclusively exemplify the "numbers" are typically in meat markets. Same with indotestudo in my opinion.

May be considered "common" but to a typical native common does not portray factually evident findings. What i look for is; history of import quota, sizes of import specimens, and delayed import quotes per client. I use to see for instance 1000s of fosrtenii at full adult(geriatric or less) sizable specimens for less than 100 market 10 or less years prior. Now best I see is male heavy (per exporter discretion i presume, and temperate controlled wild hatched elevated earth temps) imported sub adults to juveniles.

Same goes with many many species. Red foots/ yellow foots. Use to get the huge 18+ animals for nothing, manouria for dirt cheap 24" pairs, impressa for 100 each, splengeri for pennies etc.... Its all a matter of change and perception. Those that are politically standing in law, and "conservation law" dont see the details that we do.

We can see the change in animals age, size, health etc coming in and realize the negative of the meat market, consumption market, pet market, taboo market. All wr can do is take what we can and make our best initiatives, goals, and desire to keep a species going our passion.

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[hr]
Also I would like to add. Ben, your added efforts are beyome remarkably noted for this species as with others. You sir have contributed a great percentage of private, or public sector recognition for substantial captive reproductions of forstenii. Your endeavor with chelonia is dually noted in my book of great deeds to species in need, along with many many other chelonian species.

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Benjamin

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tortadise said:
Very well put Ben. I believe the overall synopsis of this species along with many other pertains to the immediate or close proximity of the "future" of its species, and relative location. For instance. Kinixys homeana/erosa. Limited or "data deficient" states to me a serious issue withing quantified numbers in the wild. Given the nature of authorities and their purpose in counting(estimating) numbers of wild specimens is very limited because og hostilities on natural ranges. The natural range for such sp. Is so dangerous (per risk analysis) to the IUCN. They deem unfit for "inconclusive" data. Well the countries of "non risk" that conclusively exemplify the "numbers" are typically in meat markets. Same with indotestudo in my opinion.

May be considered "common" but to a typical native common does not portray factually evident findings. What i look for is; history of import quota, sizes of import specimens, and delayed import quotes per client. I use to see for instance 1000s of fosrtenii at full adult(geriatric or less) sizable specimens for less than 100 market 10 or less years prior. Now best I see is male heavy (per exporter discretion i presume, and temperate controlled wild hatched elevated earth temps) imported sub adults to juveniles.

Same goes with many many species. Red foots/ yellow foots. Use to get the huge 18+ animals for nothing, manouria for dirt cheap 24" pairs, impressa for 100 each, splengeri for pennies etc.... Its all a matter of change and perception. Those that are politically standing in law, and "conservation law" dont see the details that we do.

We can see the change in animals age, size, health etc coming in and realize the negative of the meat market, consumption market, pet market, taboo market. All wr can do is take what we can and make our best initiatives, goals, and desire to keep a species going our passion.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using TortForum mobile app
[hr]
Also I would like to add. Ben, your added efforts are beyome remarkably noted for this species as with others. You sir have contributed a great percentage of private, or public sector recognition for substantial captive reproductions of forstenii. Your endeavor with chelonia is dually noted in my book of great deeds to species in need, along with many many other chelonian species.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using TortForum mobile app
Let us please keep this on topic..are indotestudo forstenii"common"? It appears that these recent imports are young adults.

The species is "going" in the US.

Where is the data on this species coming from? Be specific please.

I am well aware of the market fluctuation
of chelonians for the past few decades.. I certainly wish I had invested in the right species when I had the chance, I.forstenii excluded.

Again I am not negating the importation of I.forstenii or other taxa, simply do not attempt to justify this as conservation.
 
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