Metabolic bone disease

[Emily7tortoises]

Almost one year ago I got two hatchling tortoises for the first time I didn't know how to take care of them properly one of them is older than the other the older one grew big and healthy the other one is now so soft and pale I searched it for months and my conclusion is that it has metabolic bone disease. I put some calcium in the water I put her in and I try to make face the sun as much as I can. do you have any suggestions or help that I could do to help her?

 

[TechnoCheese]

Welcome to the forum. What species of tortoise are these? Can you provide us with pictures of the tortoises and enclosure?
Another factor affecting the smaller tortoise is bullying from being kept as a pair. Tortoises are solitary and very territorial, and while a sort of hierarchy can be achieved with a group, pairs never work out and one will usually lag behind in growth and health.
When you say "Face the sun", be sure that it is not through a window. Windows block UVB, which is what they need to process and absorb calcium. You'll want the tortoise to be outside with access to sun, but in the shade or with shade available so that it does not overheat.

 

[Emily7tortoises]

Welcome to the forum. What species of tortoise are these? Can you provide us with pictures of the tortoises and enclosure?
Another factor affecting the smaller tortoise is bullying from being kept as a pair. Tortoises are solitary and very territorial, and while a sort of hierarchy can be achieved with a group, pairs never work out and one will usually lag behind in growth and health.
When you say "Face the sun", be sure that it is not through a window. Windows block UVB, which is what they need to process and absorb calcium. You'll want the tortoise to be outside with access to sun, but in the shade or with shade available so that it does not overheat.

My tortoises are either Greek or eygeption. I didn't know that they could lack healthe if they are put in pairs and it might be one of the reason. They have always lived together and I also didn't know that window block uvb that is also what I mostly did I also put them in a big glass box. Is there anything else I could do? Also can I put a tow year old tortoise and a hatchling tortoise together? Will it effect the younger one or the same will happen?

 

[TechnoCheese]

Here is the correct care info for greeks. I'd wager that they're probably greeks, but if they are egyptions, I think they might have different care. Give this a read:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Beyond getting them outside into sunlight or getting them a UVB light and supplementing them with calcium, there's not a whole lot you can do, as far as I'm aware. If you have egg shells, you can clean them, crush them up, and sprinkle them onto their food for extra calcium, or just dust the food with calcium powder. Also be sure to soak them daily in warm water, and keep their enclosure sufficiently warm (95-100 degree f basking spot, cool side no lower than 80 f)

 

[Big Charlie]

My tortoises are either Greek or eygeption. I didn't know that they could lack healthe if they are put in pairs and it might be one of the reason. They have always lived together and I also didn't know that window block uvb that is also what I mostly did I also put them in a big glass box. Is there anything else I could do? Also can I put a tow year old tortoise and a hatchling tortoise together? Will it effect the younger one or the same will happen?

Don't put two tortoises together. One of them will get bullied.

 

[wellington]

You need to post pictures of them.
Get them separated ASAP!
Do not ever keep in pairs and no, a two year old should not be with a hatchling
You need to make changes ASAP as you have not research any good info and everything wrong has been done.
To even try to save them, they need proper uvb, temps, humidity, diet, enclosure and enclosure size!

 

[Docjim]

Almost one year ago I got two hatchling tortoises for the first time I didn't know how to take care of them properly one of them is older than the other the older one grew big and healthy the other one is now so soft and pale I searched it for months and my conclusion is that it has metabolic bone disease. I put some calcium in the water I put her in and I try to make face the sun as much as I can. do you have any suggestions or help that I could do to help her?

Hi, tortoise breeder in Chicago area here. What species are these? Did they come from the same breeder and kept the same way, same food etc? If so, it would seem unlikely that the conditions you are keeping them in would allow one to grow strong and healthy but not the other. Poor husbandry would usually affect both similarly. I think it is most likely given what you said that one has a congenital/genetic problem that perhaps impacts calcium uptake and leads to a soft shell. I have seen this occur in some hatchlings and there was nothing anybody could do at that stage to reverse the situation. If you said both tortoises were showing these changes I would be more suspicious of husbandry problems. Going to a UV emitting spotlight for heat and giving a complete food like Mazuri tortoise chow at least for a percentage of feedings should eliminate that possibility as well. The tortoise chow would supply vitamin D in addition to calcium, which is necessary for calcium uptake. Also, I would put calcium supplements on food, not in the water where it would be too diluted to do much good. Good luck, JK

 

[Tom]

I think it is most likely given what you said that one has a congenital/genetic problem that perhaps impacts calcium uptake and leads to a soft shell. I have seen this occur in some hatchlings and there was nothing anybody could do at that stage to reverse the situation.

Have you kept many tortoises in pairs? Congenital problems can certainly happen, but that is a very rare phenomenon, and when it happens they don't grow and certainly don't live for a whole year. Are you familiar with the dry conditions, lack of soaking, failure to use a brooder box set up, and the resultant kidney damage caused by these common breeder practices? One of the symptoms of this is a soft spongey plastron in the latter stages. More here:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

After a year of living as a pair, poor diet and no UV, I don't think this is a genetic/congenital issue.

Going to a UV emitting spotlight for heat ...

Spot lamps cause pyramiding. The only spot lamp that will emit UVB is a mercury vapor bulb. Those cause terrible pyramiding, even when used in humid conditions, and there UV output is all over the board from way too much to none at all. This is not good advice Docjim. The only viable indoor UV sources right now are florescent HO tubes of one brand or another. I prefer and use the Arcadia ones, but I've heard the ZooMd ones are good too. Regular T8 tubes don't make much UV, MVBs are full of all sorts of problems, and we have been made aware of some issues with the new LED UV bulbs as well.

 

[Emily7tortoises]

You need to post pictures of them.
Get them separated ASAP!
Do not ever keep in pairs and no, a two year old should not be with a hatchling
You need to make changes ASAP as you have not research any good info and everything wrong has been done.
To even try to save them, they need proper uvb, temps, humidity, diet, enclosure and enclosure size!

I know I a

Have you kept many tortoises in pairs? Congenital problems can certainly happen, but that is a very rare phenomenon, and when it happens they don't grow and certainly don't live for a whole year. Are you familiar with the dry conditions, lack of soaking, failure to use a brooder box set up, and the resultant kidney damage caused by these common breeder practices? One of the symptoms of this is a soft spongey plastron in the latter stages. More here:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

After a year of living as a pair, poor diet and no UV, I don't think this is a genetic/congenital issue.


Spot lamps cause pyramiding. The only spot lamp that will emit UVB is a mercury vapor bulb. Those cause terrible pyramiding, even when used in humid conditions, and there UV output is all over the board from way too much to none at all. This is not good advice Docjim. The only viable indoor UV sources right now are florescent HO tubes of one brand or another. I prefer and use the Arcadia ones, but I've heard the ZooMd ones are good too. Regular T8 tubes don't make much UV, MVBs are full of all sorts of problems, and we have been made aware of some issues with the new LED UV bulbs as well.

As I said at the time I wasn't really familiar with taking care of a baby tortoise so I didn't soak her daily but either way she does so much better when she is alone but something that I concluded is that I got the at almost the end of winter and the one that is a little older I think she was born before winter but the little one was born in winter so I am guessing that she didn't really face the sun while she was with the others but either way I will read the link you recommend and hopefully it will help. Edit: I read the link and she exactly has all the symptoms that you said I didn't really have any experience in baby tortoises as I only had one big tortoise who lives mostly out side and my baby tortoise almost didn't eat at the start but I thought it was normal since most of them don't eat at the start I provided them with 3 hides but I removed her because I thought it might make her worst since she is soft now I put her alone with fake grass at the bottom good space and a wood that she could sleep on. Maybe not a good temperature but I am truly trying. But I am so confused because my new two hatchling don't look as worst as she was before.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi!
I see you are very worried. Let's try to go with a simple checklist:
1. This is not your fault. The little one might survive or might not, don't blame yourself for that - keep doing the best you can for this and your other tortoises.
2. You need to separate the tortoises and don't keep them in pairs (seems you have already done that).
3. Give daily soaks in warm water (31-32C) for 15 minutes. Water should be a little bit higher than their belly (to level where top and bottom shell meet).
4. Keep them warm day and night (27C). Provide a basking spot with 34C.
5. Keep humidity in the enclosures high (80%), enclosures should be covered to sustain humidity.
6. Provide them clean water all the time (shallow clay dish, so they can get into or drink)
7. They both need UVB to absorb and ingest calcium. T5 UVB lamp for 4 hours a day is the best option. Or direct sunshine (no glass or plastic cover) at least 30 minutes, but watch closely so they don't overheat or freeze.
8. Look if you can add hibiscus or mulberry leaves or opuntia cactus pads to their diet.
9. They need some supplements to basic diet - calcium powder (small pinch over greens 1-2 times a week) or tortoise food pellets like Mazuri, Hikari Mulberiffic (2-3 times a week).

Read Tom's post "The best way to raise temperate species tortoise" (the link is in the posts above). If something is conflicting with what I've written here - use information from Tom's care sheet. I'm writing by memory and can make some mistakes.

Good luck and health to your tortoises, big and small!

 

[Emily7tortoises]

Hi!
I see you are very worried. Let's try to go with a simple checklist:
1. This is not your fault. The little one might survive or might not, don't blame yourself for that - keep doing the best you can for this and your other tortoises.
2. You need to separate the tortoises and don't keep them in pairs (seems you have already done that).
3. Give daily soaks in warm water (31-32C) for 15 minutes. Water should be a little bit higher than their belly (to level where top and bottom shell meet).
4. Keep them warm day and night (27C). Provide a basking spot with 34C.
5. Keep humidity in the enclosures high (80%), enclosures should be covered to sustain humidity.
6. Provide them clean water all the time (shallow clay dish, so they can get into or drink)
7. They both need UVB to absorb and ingest calcium. T5 UVB lamp for 4 hours a day is the best option. Or direct sunshine (no glass or plastic cover) at least 30 minutes, but watch closely so they don't overheat or freeze.
8. Look if you can add hibiscus or mulberry leaves or opuntia cactus pads to their diet.
9. They need some supplements to basic diet - calcium powder (small pinch over greens 1-2 times a week) or tortoise food pellets like Mazuri, Hikari Mulberiffic (2-3 times a week).

Read Tom's post "The best way to raise temperate species tortoise" (the link is in the posts above). If something is conflicting with what I've written here - use information from Tom's care sheet. I'm writing by memory and can make some mistakes.

Good luck and health to your tortoises, big and smib

Hi!
I see you are very worried. Let's try to go with a simple checklist:
1. This is not your fault. The little one might survive or might not, don't blame yourself for that - keep doing the best you can for this and your other tortoises.
2. You need to separate the tortoises and don't keep them in pairs (seems you have already done that).
3. Give daily soaks in warm water (31-32C) for 15 minutes. Water should be a little bit higher than their belly (to level where top and bottom shell meet).
4. Keep them warm day and night (27C). Provide a basking spot with 34C.
5. Keep humidity in the enclosures high (80%), enclosures should be covered to sustain humidity.
6. Provide them clean water all the time (shallow clay dish, so they can get into or drink)
7. They both need UVB to absorb and ingest calcium. T5 UVB lamp for 4 hours a day is the best option. Or direct sunshine (no glass or plastic cover) at least 30 minutes, but watch closely so they don't overheat or freeze.
8. Look if you can add hibiscus or mulberry leaves or opuntia cactus pads to their diet.
9. They need some supplements to basic diet - calcium powder (small pinch over greens 1-2 times a week) or tortoise food pellets like Mazuri, Hikari Mulberiffic (2-3 times a week).

Read Tom's post "The best way to raise temperate species tortoise" (the link is in the posts above). If something is conflicting with what I've written here - use information from Tom's care sheet. I'm writing by memory and can make some mistakes.

Good luck and health to your tortoises, big and small!

Hello so I am doing everything that has been men except keeping them warm at night it is so difficult to that especially that my house is cold most of the time. Is it really hurtful for them?

 

[TechnoCheese]

Hello so I am doing everything that has been men except keeping them warm at night it is so difficult to that especially that my house is cold most of the time. Is it really hurtful for them?

Yes, being kept cold is extremely harmful for them, especially for hatchlings. They are cold blooded animals and cannot regulate their own body temperatures without a source of heat. They really need to be kept warm all the time, especially the one that isn't doing well.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It depends on how cold is it at night. If it's 23-24C they should be fine. However, I would keep the weak one on higher temperatures (27-28C).

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Let's try to address the night heating problem, at least for the weak one. Do you have any heaters at hand: oil-filled radiators, convection heaters? Maybe terrarium heat sources - heat lamps, ceramic heat emitters?

 

[Docjim]

Sorry, didn't realize they were of different sizes/ages. I agree they should be separated. I keep all my baby tortoises on a blend of coconut fiber with some play sand that is kept moistened for high humidity and they all have high humidity hides. I spray their substrate down with water regularly. I also soak them all 2X per day in shallow warm water - this keeps them well hydrated, reducing kidney problems which factors into bone density issues, and keeps the substrate much cleaner, as they defecate in the soak water. Many of my babies are Burmese Stars, though, which are some of the most humidity dependent hatchlings, so they really need to get a higher humidity environment.

 

[Tom]

I keep all my baby tortoises on a blend of coconut fiber with some play sand...

This is another mistake. Sand is a potential skin and eye irritant and impaction risk. Sand should not be used for tortoise substrate in an indoor enclosure. Especially not for babies.