Madkins-please explain more about single basking lite?

[dancetoday]

Madkins,

Can you tell me a little more about what thou mean about the single warm basking heater or light? Mine are outside for now but will have to come back in at some point this fall. So I only had a single basking light for them last fall when I got them. If this is a problem, I need to know but don't understand quite what you mean. Thanks.

Lucy

The tort in the picture is pyramiding. No one knows exactly why some pyramid, and we cannot tell exactly how to prevent it, but we do have some ideas. One common issue is humidity and hydration, another is a bone-healthy diet. Recently, attention has been placed on problems caused by using a single warm basking heater or light messing up things.

It is hard to keep a tortoise happy as far as humidity, etc. goes when they free-roam in a house, but like Yvonne said- Florida is PERFECT for outdoor red-foots!

When it comes to sun, it does not take a lot to keep most species happy- a relatively small amount every day is usually fine. Any time we let our animals 'sun', we want to be sure to offer plenty of shade as well.

 

[Yvonne G]

(Note of clarification: This was asked on someone else's thread and rather than hi-jack that person's thread, I split the question off)

 

[Madkins007]

I have been trying to find the original link to this for my own records and have not found it again.

The idea is from Tortoise Trust. They took a bunch of infrared photos of tortoises basking, some under typical basking lights, others in the sun.

You can probably guess what they saw- the sun heats the entire tortoise pretty evenly. Since the ground is warm as well, even the limbs and lower sides are warm.

The tortoises under the lamps get REALLY hot on the very top of the shell, and are pretty cool everywhere else. The differences are dramatic and a bit scary in many ways.

By spot-heating the shells like that, we are possibly (unproven so far) messing up the balance between moisture and growing shells, etc. We are also making it harder for the animal to circulate blood properly and digest foods as efficiently, etc.

Think of it like a pizza (ummm, pizza!) Pizza in a good brick oven gets heat all over and comes out warm, soft, and delicious! Pizza under heat lights on a buffet gets kinda nasty pretty quickly- some of the ingredients dry out faster than others, the crust gets tough, etc.

We SHOULD probably provide a warm area more like a brick over- multiple heat lamps arranged to provide a nice, even heating area big enough to warm the whole animal. Unfortunately, we have not really solved this yet.


Hey! I found the original article- http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8079

 

[Nixxy]

Would a single lamp be fine for a full grown?

 

[Mgridgaway]

This is a really interesting theory, but to be honest, I've never ever seen either my redfoots or my EBT's bask. In fact, most of the time they're trying to stay out of the light.

Of course, this is partially because both of this species are forest dwelling, so it may have more pertinence to torts with a... shall we say... sunnier disposition?

 

[Hustler]

That is a very good read mad
i just switched all my bulbs over to MVBs and noticed they were alot more directed than the previous ones....

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Just to elaborate a little on the issue....

I had originally posted the link from TortoiseTrust in this thread to spark some discussion.

Wellington continued that further in her own thread here.

In a nutshell, the studies showed that many turtles and tortoises outdoors bask either in the morning hours and/or during the evening, when the sun is at an angle. This allows better exposure of their head and limbs to natural UVB radiation, as opposed to the midday sun when it is directly above. And also, like Madkins stated, there is residual warmth coming from everywhere (the ground, basking logs, stones, etc.), not just from above.

This is why I believe having supplemental heating for the substrate is important, at least for the more tropical & subtropical species.

In Wellington's thread, the main debate was the use of mercury vapor bulbs (MVBs). These bulbs are essentially high-wattage flood lamps that emit a focused beam of high heat and UVB rays. The issue comes from the fact that the manufacturers of MVBs recommend keeping the bulb straight up/down directed downwards into the enclosure, as to not compromise the integrity of the bulb. However, in light of these studies with TT, it seems having the bulbs at an angle is more natural. So the dilemma lies in sticking to the book, and having the bulb last longer but not heating your tortoise properly, or positioning it at an angle and probably having it bust in a few months, thus replacing a $35+ light bulb frequently.

Personally, I choose not to use MVBs altogether, and stick to ceramic heat emitters, substrate heating, and tube florescents for UVB.

 

[Madkins007]

This is a really interesting theory, but to be honest, I've never ever seen either my redfoots or my EBT's bask. In fact, most of the time they're trying to stay out of the light.

Of course, this is partially because both of this species are forest dwelling, so it may have more pertinence to torts with a... shall we say... sunnier disposition?

We've seen comments like this a lot before, but many other keepers and field researchers have seen red-footeds and even the deeper forest yellow-footed tortoises bask. Like other species, they will bask when they feel chilled or need a bit more heat to digest a meal, etc.

The fact that they may not bask as much as other species does not change the basic idea that general heat is almost certainly a better idea than 'top spot heat'. We often find sort of the opposite problem with these guys. Red-footeds are often kept on damp, clammy substrates as we try to keep them humid- and this just means that whatever heat they did manage to absorb is just going to get sucked away.

Red-footeds are also not a 'forest-dwelling' species in most of their range. Field researches often point out that they rarely find yellows and reds together in the areas their ranges overlap- the reds are almost always in the openings and edges while the yellows are most often found in the forest and generally near water.

Red-footeds are more often found in open savanna, scrub or thorn forest, open woods, etc. and this is stated over and over in books about their natural history. It is usually a 'wetter', greener part of these areas, but there just is not rainforest in much of their range.

 

[Mgridgaway]

Forgive me for not being more specific, I was just trying to be a little silly with that part of my post. But you are right, red-foots are not forest-dwelling in the way yellowfoots are.

I read the abstract tortoise trust posted, and it is interesting, but for me, at least, it's pretty much common sense with a good scientific ground. Coming into tortoise ownership, I knew that maintaining an overall temperature is often more important than a basking area, and that's why I provide 3 different types of heat - of different intensities - in my enclosure.

I also saw that many bulbs were tested, though he failed to mention which ones (which is understandable). My go-to brands right now are Powersun and Megaray, and they couldn't be more different. UVA/UVB aside, the Powersun is a diffused flood, I believe, and its heat is downright gentle.... even softer than many basking lamps I've used in the past. The MegaRay is a beast of a narrow flood, and even the 100W is the hottest bulb I've ever felt.

I'll be interested in reading the full report when it comes out!

 

[EricIvins]

This is fairly simple - Like I said in the previous thread, big Lizards keepers have been doing this for 20 years +.........

The basking spot needs to relative to the size of the animal basking......One bulb is not going to do what three or four bulbs spaced out can........One bulb basking spots have been burning/killing Reptiles since they've been kept in captivity........

Thermal dynamics is not a hard concept to grasp if you think about it........I also have to laugh at all these 60/100/250 watt basking spots - You can create a safe, 120 degree basking spot with 30 watt floods and not have to worry about thermal burns - Another simple concept - Bring the basking spot to the animal, not vice versa - You create a jerky maker by using anything more than 45 watts......