leopcatas??

[argus333]

whats up with leopracatas? i see them for sale from time to time, how big do they get? does anyone on here have one? the shells look amazing. why are they so expensive? is it hard to breed leopard an sulcatas? dont know if i like this or not?

 

[Zamric]

Yes they are a crossbreed and there are lots of pros and cons on the subject. all I know is that they are beautiful creatures and I dont know if anyone knows how big they get yet.

 

[mctlong]

Feels like ownership of both leopards and sulcatas have sky-rocketed in the last ten years. As this generation reaches maturity, I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more hybrids resulting in a massive price drop and overabundance of lepracattas.

---

They are gorgeous animals.

 

[Zamric]

Feels like ownership of both leopards and sulcatas have sky-rocketed in the last ten years. As this generation reaches maturity, I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more hybrids resulting in a massive price drop and overabundance of lepracattas.

I dont think its as easy as mating as one might think! other wise we would already have more on the market.

 

[wellington]

There is at least one member that had two of them. However, they are still little/young and I don't think he has them any more.

 

[mctlong]

Feels like ownership of both leopards and sulcatas have sky-rocketed in the last ten years. As this generation reaches maturity, I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more hybrids resulting in a massive price drop and overabundance of lepracattas.

I dont think its as easy as mating as one might think! other wise we would already have more on the market.

I'd be curious see if the lepracattas are fertile.

 

[RedfootsRule]

I don't think anyone has seen them stop growing yet. They haven't been around that long yet to stop growing...So its something to see. Heterosis might arise...When the torts are 20, they might end up bigger then sulcatas or leopards. They might end up smaller. They might end up right in the middle. No one really knows yet.
I don't know of how breeding them goes, but I believe that getting a leopard and sulcata to mate is difficult to begin with, or even the shell shape of them being compatible for them to be able to mate (this is an issue with galapagos and such). And then the eggs might be difficult to incubate successfully, or the eggs may rarely be fertile.
They are expensive because they are interesting. Very neat tortoises.

 

[Zamric]

I don't think anyone has seen them stop growing yet. They haven't been around that long yet to stop growing...So its something to see. Heterosis might arise...When the torts are 20, they might end up bigger then sulcatas or leopards. They might end up smaller. They might end up right in the middle. No one really knows yet.
I don't know of how breeding them goes, but I believe that getting a leopard and sulcata to mate is difficult to begin with, or even the shell shape of them being compatible for them to be able to mate (this is an issue with galapagos and such). And then the eggs might be difficult to incubate successfully, or the eggs may rarely be fertile.
They are expensive because they are interesting. Very neat tortoises.

Not being a Breeder I was afraid to make a bold statement of the difficulties but the points you made are all very good aspects of the difficulties to overcome... I accually thought most Leopcatas where an artificially insiminated crossbreed.

 

[RedfootsRule]

I don't think anyone has seen them stop growing yet. They haven't been around that long yet to stop growing...So its something to see. Heterosis might arise...When the torts are 20, they might end up bigger then sulcatas or leopards. They might end up smaller. They might end up right in the middle. No one really knows yet.
I don't know of how breeding them goes, but I believe that getting a leopard and sulcata to mate is difficult to begin with, or even the shell shape of them being compatible for them to be able to mate (this is an issue with galapagos and such). And then the eggs might be difficult to incubate successfully, or the eggs may rarely be fertile.
They are expensive because they are interesting. Very neat tortoises.

Not being a Breeder I was afraid to make a bold statement of the difficulties but the points you made are all very good aspects of the difficulties to overcome... I accually thought most Leopcatas where an artificially insiminated crossbreed.

I have never heard of it, and I was under the impression that artificial insemunation had not yet been attempted in chelonians...
Another thing is that the female could not have been allowed to mate with any other male her whole life. If its a female leopard, she must ONLY mate with a male sulcata to produce hybrids. If she was mated with a male of the same species before, the sperm will get mixed, and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids. If it does not disclude the male sulcata, it will still not be a true hybrid; more like 75% leo, 25% sulcata, or even less sulcata. So, the female of choice must be a virgin.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't think anyone has seen them stop growing yet. They haven't been around that long yet to stop growing...So its something to see. Heterosis might arise...When the torts are 20, they might end up bigger then sulcatas or leopards. They might end up smaller. They might end up right in the middle. No one really knows yet.
I don't know of how breeding them goes, but I believe that getting a leopard and sulcata to mate is difficult to begin with, or even the shell shape of them being compatible for them to be able to mate (this is an issue with galapagos and such). And then the eggs might be difficult to incubate successfully, or the eggs may rarely be fertile.
They are expensive because they are interesting. Very neat tortoises.

Not being a Breeder I was afraid to make a bold statement of the difficulties but the points you made are all very good aspects of the difficulties to overcome... I accually thought most Leopcatas where an artificially insiminated crossbreed.

I have never heard of it, and I was under the impression that artificial insemunation had not yet been attempted in chelonians...
Another thing is that the female could not have been allowed to mate with any other male her whole life. If its a female leopard, she must ONLY mate with a male sulcata to produce hybrids. If she was mated with a male of the same species before, the sperm will get mixed, and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids. If it does not disclude the male sulcata, it will still not be a true hybrid; more like 75% leo, 25% sulcata, or even less sulcata. So, the female of choice must be a virgin.

The Honolulu Zoo used artificial insemination with A.yiniphora. I think that was in the 1980s. A few hatchlings were produced from the process.

 

[mctlong]

I have never heard of it, and I was under the impression that artificial insemunation had not yet been attempted in chelonians...
Another thing is that the female could not have been allowed to mate with any other male her whole life. If its a female leopard, she must ONLY mate with a male sulcata to produce hybrids. If she was mated with a male of the same species before, the sperm will get mixed, and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids. If it does not disclude the male sulcata, it will still not be a true hybrid; more like 75% leo, 25% sulcata, or even less sulcata. So, the female of choice must be a virgin.

Peter, do you have a reference for this info? I'm very very well versed in human genetics but am new to tortoise genetics and alot of what you said sounds a bit foreign to me.

For example, this:

If she was mated with a male of the same species before, the sperm will get mixed, and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids.

What organ are we talking about here? With mammals, the strongest and/or fastest sperm fertilizes the egg. One sperm for every one egg. There is no organ that mixes sperm. Genetic defects in mammals are avoided by spontaneous miscarriage of misdeveloped fetuses. I assumed that with tortoises, genetic defects were avoided by an egg simply failing to thrive. I'd never heard of this organ that mixes DNA. Can you provide more info?

This also seems strange to me, and like I said, its probably a result of my ignorance when it comes to reptilian reproduction:

and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids. If it does not disclude the male sulcata, it will still not be a true hybrid; more like 75% leo, 25% sulcata, or even less sulcata. So, the female of choice must be a virgin.

Again, with mammals, one sperm fertilizes on egg. period. So, every single offspring has exactly 50% of one father and 50% of one mother. It will always be 50/50. So, when thinking about tortoises, I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of "not true hybrids." Are you saying that its possible for genetic material from multiple males to get into one egg?

Because of my background in human genetics, I'm having trouble believing that such a mechanism exists in tortoises, but I'm trying to be open-minded. So, if you have a reference or can point me in the direction of getting more info on this topic, I would really appreciate it.

This new info makes leprecattas far more interesting than I originally assumed!

 

[Tom]

They are produced by allowing two different species to breed. It does not matter if the female is a virgin or not. One sperm from one parent or another will fertilize one egg, just like any other animal that reproduces sexually. It is possible to have eggs that are both sulcata/sulcata or sulcata/leopard in the same clutch, just like when a litter of puppies is fertilized by two different dogs. Each pup will have the same mother, but they can have two different fathers and still be littermates.

While some may find this novel and interesting, I, and many others are against mixing species and most certainly against creating hybrids. Leopards and sulcatas have very different personalities and I recommend against mixing them at all.

 

[EricIvins]

I don't think anyone has seen them stop growing yet. They haven't been around that long yet to stop growing...So its something to see. Heterosis might arise...When the torts are 20, they might end up bigger then sulcatas or leopards. They might end up smaller. They might end up right in the middle. No one really knows yet.
I don't know of how breeding them goes, but I believe that getting a leopard and sulcata to mate is difficult to begin with, or even the shell shape of them being compatible for them to be able to mate (this is an issue with galapagos and such). And then the eggs might be difficult to incubate successfully, or the eggs may rarely be fertile.
They are expensive because they are interesting. Very neat tortoises.

Not being a Breeder I was afraid to make a bold statement of the difficulties but the points you made are all very good aspects of the difficulties to overcome... I accually thought most Leopcatas where an artificially insiminated crossbreed.

I have never heard of it, and I was under the impression that artificial insemunation had not yet been attempted in chelonians...
Another thing is that the female could not have been allowed to mate with any other male her whole life. If its a female leopard, she must ONLY mate with a male sulcata to produce hybrids. If she was mated with a male of the same species before, the sperm will get mixed, and likely the organ that mixes sperm to reduce genetic defects will completely disclude the sulcata DNA, and thus they will not be true hybrids. If it does not disclude the male sulcata, it will still not be a true hybrid; more like 75% leo, 25% sulcata, or even less sulcata. So, the female of choice must be a virgin.

References? Because this goes against what we know about the production of Reptile Hybrids in captivity.......

Multiple Paternity in a clutch is very possible, but multiple Paternity in one animal is not........

 

[RedfootsRule]

Sorry, I have no references for the amount of DNA from either parent that would end up in the babies at all, that was just random guessing .
I'm not sure "what" organ exactly it is, but I know there is a way the female does it. Its storing sperm, basically. We all know they store sperm; the same place they store the sperm, they mix the sperm from different males that mate with them. They do this to result in less genetic defects, stronger babys, etc.

And yeah, I just realized I was not reading what I wrote . You are completely right, mctlong, one sperm fertilizes one egg. The babys of the clutch can all have different fathers, but only one mother, and one egg has one father and one mother.....Your right, sorry I wasn't thinking . I have these moments I just type and not think about what I'm typing...I am not a female, but still blonde, therefore I am allotted to say at least two stupid things a day (I know someone is going to say I've exceeded) So, the CLUTCH, not the babys, could be mostly leopard and just a few mixes then, yes? I am no geneticist here, I think I just took everything I have read, mashed it together, and came out with the wrong answer. Oops

I just felt, the female may have to be a virgin, because if they store and mix sperm to reduce genetic results, is there not a possibility the sulcata sperm (assuming the female is a leopard) would be completely discluded, being that it is foreign, and she has perfectly good leopard sperm? I might be completely wrong, its just a guess of mine. There is no "proof" for this, because likely there is no research. It just sounds logical to me.
Hey now, I still could've been right. Crazy things happen, I'm sure there are multiple-father babies somewhere in the world .

Thanks Benjamin, thats really interesting...I suppose with a shortage of yniphora, its easier that way? Maybe they need to start collecting and cryogenically preserving all male sperm incase we end up with only females...

 

[N2TORTS]

 

[argus333]

the shells are stunning!

 

[EricIvins]

Sorry, I have no references for the amount of DNA from either parent that would end up in the babies at all, that was just random guessing .
I'm not sure "what" organ exactly it is, but I know there is a way the female does it. Its storing sperm, basically. We all know they store sperm; the same place they store the sperm, they mix the sperm from different males that mate with them. They do this to result in less genetic defects, stronger babys, etc.

And yeah, I just realized I was not reading what I wrote . You are completely right, mctlong, one sperm fertilizes one egg. The babys of the clutch can all have different fathers, but only one mother, and one egg has one father and one mother.....Your right, sorry I wasn't thinking . I have these moments I just type and not think about what I'm typing...I am not a female, but still blonde, therefore I am allotted to say at least two stupid things a day (I know someone is going to say I've exceeded) So, the CLUTCH, not the babys, could be mostly leopard and just a few mixes then, yes? I am no geneticist here, I think I just took everything I have read, mashed it together, and came out with the wrong answer. Oops

I just felt, the female may have to be a virgin, because if they store and mix sperm to reduce genetic results, is there not a possibility the sulcata sperm (assuming the female is a leopard) would be completely discluded, being that it is foreign, and she has perfectly good leopard sperm? I might be completely wrong, its just a guess of mine. There is no "proof" for this, because likely there is no research. It just sounds logical to me.
Hey now, I still could've been right. Crazy things happen, I'm sure there are multiple-father babies somewhere in the world .

Thanks Benjamin, thats really interesting...I suppose with a shortage of yniphora, its easier that way? Maybe they need to start collecting and cryogenically preserving all male sperm incase we end up with only females...

That's what I was thinking......Opinion with no basis......

Chimeras have and do occur in Reptiles, but I've yet to see any shred of proof that this has been documented in Tortoises, let alone Hybrid Tortoises........

 

[RedfootsRule]

[/quote]

That's what I was thinking......Opinion with no basis......

Chimeras have and do occur in Reptiles, but I've yet to see any shred of proof that this has been documented in Tortoises, let alone Hybrid Tortoises........
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know if it was your intent or not, but your writing makes your statement come across as quite rude. I would suggest amending it, and try to be more careful what you say around here.
And I somehow suspect tortoise genetics is not hugely documented, nor researched (it isn't) so who are we to talk about what we do not know? I "suspect" many things; whether or not they will be proven true remains to be seen.