both post your never lists please
Kale but not Spinach?
- Thread starter DoctorCosmonaut
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My NEVER grocery store list is: Rhubarb, hot peppers, hamburger, baked goods and pastas, dairy products, processed meats, and not a lot else.
There are a lot of foods I use RARELY and in small quantities, or have not used but people I respect have in small quantities. This would include nuts, olives, avacados, cereal-based foods and pellets, potatoes, citrus, etc. This list should be kept in context- they can but do not have to be used in small, occasional quantities as a part of an overall healthy diet- just like your doctor tells you about things like cake or ice cream. Most of these foods offer little nutritionally that I cannot get in other ways, but are not a risk in small amounts.
There are a lot of foods I use RARELY and in small quantities, or have not used but people I respect have in small quantities. This would include nuts, olives, avacados, cereal-based foods and pellets, potatoes, citrus, etc. This list should be kept in context- they can but do not have to be used in small, occasional quantities as a part of an overall healthy diet- just like your doctor tells you about things like cake or ice cream. Most of these foods offer little nutritionally that I cannot get in other ways, but are not a risk in small amounts.
Olives? I hope you mean raw... otherwise they would have lethal amounts of sodium it seems
This is Most of my NO list.
Now remember I have herbivores.
So no animal protein, unless they catch and eat a bug outdoors.
These are the Of course Nots:
No baked goods, pastas or dairy.
Now the plants:
No Rhubarb or their leaves, No leaves of the tomato, eggplant, potato or pepper plants, no onions (like red or Vidalia). No potatoes. No pothos, Bird of Paradise, Amaryllis Avocado leaves, no four-o’clocks, Bottlebrush, Buttercup, calla lily, No Cherry tree leaves, Ivy, fiddle neck, hydrangea, holly, poinsettia, Iris, Morning Glories, oak leaves or acorns, Philodendron, Ranunculus, Snapdragon, tobacco plants, Oleander.
No seeds (apple, pear, cherry, peach seeds, plum). No citrus fruit or folage. No olives or olive tree plant (I am allergic). No nuts.
Now remember I have herbivores.
So no animal protein, unless they catch and eat a bug outdoors.
These are the Of course Nots:
No baked goods, pastas or dairy.
Now the plants:
No Rhubarb or their leaves, No leaves of the tomato, eggplant, potato or pepper plants, no onions (like red or Vidalia). No potatoes. No pothos, Bird of Paradise, Amaryllis Avocado leaves, no four-o’clocks, Bottlebrush, Buttercup, calla lily, No Cherry tree leaves, Ivy, fiddle neck, hydrangea, holly, poinsettia, Iris, Morning Glories, oak leaves or acorns, Philodendron, Ranunculus, Snapdragon, tobacco plants, Oleander.
No seeds (apple, pear, cherry, peach seeds, plum). No citrus fruit or folage. No olives or olive tree plant (I am allergic). No nuts.
Just FYI- olives- raw or fresh, or well-rinsed and only in SMALL AMOUNTS. Note that I do not use most of the things in my 'rarely' list, but I'm not going to freak out if an olive falls in my mixed veggies box when I am at the deli salad bar, etc.
Robyn- I know you limit fruit in general to your torts, but I am wondering about the seeds of fruits. I know most torts pass whole seeds complete, and are even considered useful in seed dispersal. I also know that many seeds are toxic in quantity if they are cracked.
My question is are they on your list because of the theoretical risk, or have torts been made ill from them?
Robyn- I know you limit fruit in general to your torts, but I am wondering about the seeds of fruits. I know most torts pass whole seeds complete, and are even considered useful in seed dispersal. I also know that many seeds are toxic in quantity if they are cracked.
My question is are they on your list because of the theoretical risk, or have torts been made ill from them?
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
I see that green beans are on your ok group...But they should be on the Never list. Beans and any legumes are bad...I am certainly no expert...but I have about 27 chelonia and have learned some things from them. I believe they are all opportunistic feeders and if, for instance, a Sulcata came across a glazed donut in the wild, they would eat it. Does that mean I should feed donuts everyday? Nope, but if I need something to add a little variety to a torts diet I might add the donut.
I was sitting in the sun one day watching a group of Gopherus agassizii I had at the time (a few months old probably 50 grams) when all the sudden one jumped up in the air and took off like a shot...he ran over to the block wall and pulled a bluebelly off the wall. The bluebelly was probably 4 inches and the tortoise 3 inches. It was quite a battle but in the end the bluebelly was eaten all up. In the wild they eat so much more then we allow in captivity...I feed my tortoises everything I can. Don't bother yelling at me, I have already been yelled at by the best, I don't care, I raise healthy tortoises that are well socialized, look good and will eat anything...makes it very easy to take to the Vet and makes it easy to feed and give meds...
I was sitting in the sun one day watching a group of Gopherus agassizii I had at the time (a few months old probably 50 grams) when all the sudden one jumped up in the air and took off like a shot...he ran over to the block wall and pulled a bluebelly off the wall. The bluebelly was probably 4 inches and the tortoise 3 inches. It was quite a battle but in the end the bluebelly was eaten all up. In the wild they eat so much more then we allow in captivity...I feed my tortoises everything I can. Don't bother yelling at me, I have already been yelled at by the best, I don't care, I raise healthy tortoises that are well socialized, look good and will eat anything...makes it very easy to take to the Vet and makes it easy to feed and give meds...
I do not think avocado should ever be fed. We had some very sad stories here of torts getting sick off it. Very high in fat.
maggie3fan said:
Heck, *I* am not going to yell at you over an opportunistic fruit- it is well documented that most tortoises will eat some fruit- mostly berries- in the wild, and even eat a decent amount of opportunisitic protein.
Which brings me to legumes. There are two main arguments I have heard against legumes: not a naturally eaten food, and too high in protein.
As for a natural food, while I cannot speak about grassland species, some of the documented foods for wild Red-foots are legumes, which in most scientific reports are included as 'fruits'.
As for the protein, I know there is a lot of debate about protein and grassland species, and I don't know enough to weigh in on that- but Red-foots eat a pretty high amount of plant and animal protein in the wild.
Legumes do not offer enough nutrients to justify them being a favored food, but they do offer some amino acids, etc. that are useful. I also do not treat all legumes equally. Clover is a legume and I use it freely. I do not use garbanzo, peanuts, or soy.
The 'good/OK/bad' list for a Red-foot is going to be different than it will be for a Desert Tortoise or Russian. I don't always make it clear that my list of foods is for Red-foots and I apologize for that.
I just got some tamarinds... Gonna see how they go over
S
stells
Guest
I feel the need to post on this...
I had a small tortoise (approx 3 inches) form a stone last year... first symtoms of this were shown as RNS (stress related)... at the time i put the stress down to other things... until one day i found her straining... i picked her up and to my horror saw she was trying to pass a massive stone... tears were shed... phone calls were made (Danny)... and i had to help her pass the stone... i think Danny has picture... today she is alive and thriving once again... but its been a long slog to get her where she is now
Anyway to cut a long story shot... i have been known to ramble...
The tortoise was bathed daily... and has access to water 24/7... also the weed mix was fed wet... and temps were all ok'ed by two knowledgable keepers (Danny and Ed)...
The only thing it came down to was diet... so i watched the tortoise... and fed her the mix i fed regularly which consisted of a fast variety of weeds... Dandelion... Sowthistle... Mallow... Chickweed the list goes on...
The tortoise was picking out the food with a moderate-high amount of oxalic acid...
So from my experience the stone was not formed because of dehydration... but more because of the foods i was feeding which have now been reserched further than i ever intended i would...
I had a small tortoise (approx 3 inches) form a stone last year... first symtoms of this were shown as RNS (stress related)... at the time i put the stress down to other things... until one day i found her straining... i picked her up and to my horror saw she was trying to pass a massive stone... tears were shed... phone calls were made (Danny)... and i had to help her pass the stone... i think Danny has picture... today she is alive and thriving once again... but its been a long slog to get her where she is now
Anyway to cut a long story shot... i have been known to ramble...
The tortoise was bathed daily... and has access to water 24/7... also the weed mix was fed wet... and temps were all ok'ed by two knowledgable keepers (Danny and Ed)...
The only thing it came down to was diet... so i watched the tortoise... and fed her the mix i fed regularly which consisted of a fast variety of weeds... Dandelion... Sowthistle... Mallow... Chickweed the list goes on...
The tortoise was picking out the food with a moderate-high amount of oxalic acid...
So from my experience the stone was not formed because of dehydration... but more because of the foods i was feeding which have now been reserched further than i ever intended i would...
Madkins007 said:egyptiandan said:
Stones: According to Dr. Mader, etc., it is not the presence of the calcium oxalates that are the main risk in stones, it is dehydration working on the calcium in various forms in the system. Other contributers to stones are thought to be vitamin A deficiency, too much animal protein in herbivores, etc.
Regarding oxalic acid/calcium oxalates- most reports of their contribution to health problems refer to HIGH levels, as are found in rhubarb leaves, deiffenbachia, etc. These reports consider spinach to have a medium level.
Mike Pingleton makes an interesting observation in his new book- we make a lot of comments about the food our reptiles eat that we would NEVER make for human food. You don't skip spinach in your salad because of oxalates, or worry that too much cole slaw is going to give you goiter.
Why don't we worry about this stuff- balance and variety. Good hydration (we are really not as dehydrated as the '8 big glasses of water a day' fadists would suggest), etc.
Why doesn't this work for tortoises? Actually, as far as we can tell, it does.
Caratios of non-human foods: It takes some work, but I have found the ratios and other info on a lot of plants that are used in other countries, or that are used for domesticated animals, etc.
The Ca
- Red clover- 3.1:1
- Fescue- 1.4:1
I have not looked for the others, but I will.
Agreed! My tort seems even more sensitive to oxalic acid than some, so I feed less of it, which unfortunately means more lettuces and less weeds for him. He also had a stone, and at a very young age (about 6 months).
Madkins, I have never fed a seed as listed on my no list to my torts and I know that some seeds are toxic to not only torts but to humans as well. I have read that some torts have ingested apple seed and become ill, though I can not find the writings at this time. I know of a DT that eats peaches that has fallen off the tree for years and is fine. But seeds like apple seeds are much softer and are easily broken open by a sharp beak. I personally would not chance it. And unlike yours my torts are a small species so toxins are well, more toxic in smaller quantities.
Kelly, I am with you, I have done more research on the foods I feed more than I ever intended I would. As you all know I recently lost a young Greek from a stone. I had increased all my Greeks intake of dandelions as they had gone crazy in my yard. Dandelion is a good food right? Yeah, fed in moderate amounts. All the torts were doing fine. I was soaking them and giving them a varied diet. But giving and her eating a varied diet is two different things. She was eating and eating dandelions, and little bits of other things. I think that some animals, torts or humans can be more sucseptible to toxins, minerals etc. And I know dehydration can play a part in the breakdown of any system. torts, or humans, but I also know that if eaten enough of, even humans can suffer from the effects of oxalic crystals and stones. Even well hydrated people.
I do not give my hatchlings and young Greeks Kale, spinach Broccoli, cabbage, Chives, collard greens, beet greens or parsley and dandelions are now an occasional green, along with Red Leaf Lettuce and romain to name a few.
Yvonne now for legumes.
Legumes come in many different forms green beans, clover, alfalfa, peas, beans, lentils, lupins, mesquite, carob and peanuts to name a few.
Legumes are an excellent source of protein, iron and fiber. They are low-fat and low in cholesterol.
Thus they can be a healthy substitute for meat.
A Hundred grams of cooked legumes can supply two-thirds of an active human’s daily protein needs.
So would I feed legumes to my torts? Yes but in small amounts and occasionally. Small torts - Small amounts. Anyone who has ever fed clover to a tort has fed legumes. Like any food that is not a direct out and out poison it often depends on the size of the tort and the predisposition of the tort.
Here again we look at variety not only what you are feeding them but what they are actually eating. If I am feeding more than one tort in a pen I either separate them or watch them eat. No more picking out only one thing while the others eat the rest. Tortoises have been around a long time and it is only recently that we have really began to look at what they eat, how they eat it and how much of it they eat. We’ve got a long way to go Baby.
Kelly, I am with you, I have done more research on the foods I feed more than I ever intended I would. As you all know I recently lost a young Greek from a stone. I had increased all my Greeks intake of dandelions as they had gone crazy in my yard. Dandelion is a good food right? Yeah, fed in moderate amounts. All the torts were doing fine. I was soaking them and giving them a varied diet. But giving and her eating a varied diet is two different things. She was eating and eating dandelions, and little bits of other things. I think that some animals, torts or humans can be more sucseptible to toxins, minerals etc. And I know dehydration can play a part in the breakdown of any system. torts, or humans, but I also know that if eaten enough of, even humans can suffer from the effects of oxalic crystals and stones. Even well hydrated people.
I do not give my hatchlings and young Greeks Kale, spinach Broccoli, cabbage, Chives, collard greens, beet greens or parsley and dandelions are now an occasional green, along with Red Leaf Lettuce and romain to name a few.
Yvonne now for legumes.
Legumes come in many different forms green beans, clover, alfalfa, peas, beans, lentils, lupins, mesquite, carob and peanuts to name a few.
Legumes are an excellent source of protein, iron and fiber. They are low-fat and low in cholesterol.
Thus they can be a healthy substitute for meat.
A Hundred grams of cooked legumes can supply two-thirds of an active human’s daily protein needs.
So would I feed legumes to my torts? Yes but in small amounts and occasionally. Small torts - Small amounts. Anyone who has ever fed clover to a tort has fed legumes. Like any food that is not a direct out and out poison it often depends on the size of the tort and the predisposition of the tort.
Here again we look at variety not only what you are feeding them but what they are actually eating. If I am feeding more than one tort in a pen I either separate them or watch them eat. No more picking out only one thing while the others eat the rest. Tortoises have been around a long time and it is only recently that we have really began to look at what they eat, how they eat it and how much of it they eat. We’ve got a long way to go Baby.
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