Is this swelling???

[Squirt the Dalmation]

Hey tortoise family. So I know I'm probably just still going through some PTSD due to all of Crush's health issues leading up to him passing, however, its better to ask and know then not ask and not know...

I feel like Squirt looks a little puffy. He/she has not been very good about drinking water during bath time, or during the day. I check the camera regularly while at work and Squirt never really even walks near the water dish. A couple times I've seen him/her climb through it, but still not drink, even one sip). I can get Squirt to take several sips of water from a children's medicine syringe, but I try to only do that every other or every third day because I don't want to create or reinforce "bad habits." Unless you all think this is okay?

Dandelion greens (favorite green) sprinkled with the calcium powder were Squirt's favorite thing. Squirt would even lick/bite the remnants of the calcium off the feeding slate. Yesterday morning I left that exact combo on the slate, and when I got home, Squirt hadn't touched the food, and wouldn't eat fresh dandelion greens or fresh organic spring mix either. All this combined to create my concern.

See pictures below.





@Alex and the Redfoot
@Tom @Littleredfootbigredheart
@Yvonne G
If its nothing, awesome! If its something, please provide suggestions. As always, appreciate everyone here!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I don’t personally see anything worrying in the photos, he doesn’t look puffy to me, maybe slightly in the front(though it’s kinda hard to say looking at photos cause it can depend on the position they’re in), back legs look fine, we’ll see what the others think.
Has he eaten today? Do you have any photos of him we can compare to when you first got him? Particularly the front

As for the water drinking try not to worry, their bodies work differently to us in terms of water intake, they get hydrated through soaks, water in their food and humidity, in the wild they may go days in between finding a puddle to drink out of, if he’s thirsty and feels the need, he’ll have a drink, if he doesn’t he’s likely feeling adequately hydrated, you can up his water intake by spraying his food too

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Also guys baby squirt is housed in optimal conditions, temperatures, humidity, lighting, substrate etc all follow the forum’s guidelines

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

I don’t personally see anything worrying in the photos, he doesn’t look puffy to me, maybe slightly in the front(though it’s kinda hard to say looking at photos cause it can depend on the position they’re in), back legs look fine, we’ll see what the others think.
Has he eaten today? Do you have any photos of him we can compare to when you first got him? Particularly the front

As for the water drinking try not to worry, their bodies work differently to us in terms of water intake, they get hydrated through soaks, water in their food and humidity, in the wild they may go days in between finding a puddle to drink out of, if he’s thirsty and feels the need, he’ll have a drink, if he doesn’t he’s likely feeling adequately hydrated, you can up his water intake by spraying his food too

I spray the food but it dries out by the time Squirt gets to it. Is giving him water through the syringe bad?
Here's two of the closest comparison shots I could find (similar slightly retracted head and tail angles)

 

[RandyTortoise]

I think you have your answer. I just wanted to say he is damn cute!

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

I think you have your answer. I just wanted to say he is damn cute!

Thank you. I agree!!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I spray the food but it dries out by the time Squirt gets to it. Is giving him water through the syringe bad?
Here's two of the closest comparison shots I could find (similar slightly retracted head and tail angles)
View attachment 393425
View attachment 393426

No worries, I wouldn’t stress about the drinking, he’ll take water as and when he needspersonally I probably wouldn’t suggest the syringe, I’d be a little worry about aspiration, unless it’s more you squeeze it out in front of him as he sips as opposed to straight in his mouth? Again I’ll see what others say but I don’t think it’ll be necessary.

Comparatively I can see why you’ve been a bit concerned, it does look like some water retention at the front in the photos, there’s different factors that can cause that kind of thing, we already know your husbandry is great, what other kinds of greens has he been eating currently? Has he been pooping ok?

I know it’s hard to say for sure on photos, but I can see what you mean when looking side by side

Please don’t panic thoughlet’s wait for a more experienced opinion

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

No worries, I wouldn’t stress about the drinking, he’ll take water as and when he needspersonally I probably wouldn’t suggest the syringe, I’d be a little worry about aspiration, unless it’s more you squeeze it out in front of him as he sips as opposed to straight in his mouth? Again I’ll see what others say but I don’t think it’ll be necessary.

Comparatively I can see why you’ve been a bit concerned, it does look like some water retention at the front in the photos, there’s different factors that can cause that kind of thing, we already know your husbandry is great, what other kinds of greens has he been eating currently? Has he been pooping ok?

I know it’s hard to say for sure on photos, but I can see what you mean when looking side by side
View attachment 393431
Please don’t panic thoughlet’s wait for a more experienced opinion

Squirt will eat some of the Arugula and occasionally a bite or two of baby spinach that's included in spring mix. Pretty much solely interested in dandelion greens. I've looked for Collard Greens and escarole at the supermarket but the selection for those has looked like its already spoiling each time I go, so haven't gotten it. Are turnip greens a viable option as well? Can't remember on that one. I've only found a few poops and they are so tiny its hard to keep track of. Except for the fact that they are on or near the food slate. Pee has been spotted in nightly baths about 3 times in the last week or 1.5 weeks. Little white puddle. And I'm sure more in enclosure, but again, hard to tell.

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

No worries, I wouldn’t stress about the drinking, he’ll take water as and when he needspersonally I probably wouldn’t suggest the syringe, I’d be a little worry about aspiration, unless it’s more you squeeze it out in front of him as he sips as opposed to straight in his mouth? Again I’ll see what others say but I don’t think it’ll be necessary.

Comparatively I can see why you’ve been a bit concerned, it does look like some water retention at the front in the photos, there’s different factors that can cause that kind of thing, we already know your husbandry is great, what other kinds of greens has he been eating currently? Has he been pooping ok?

I know it’s hard to say for sure on photos, but I can see what you mean when looking side by side
View attachment 393431
Please don’t panic thoughlet’s wait for a more experienced opinion

Also, to your question is Squirts eaten today, it doesn't look like it

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Squirt will eat some of the Arugula and occasionally a bite or two of baby spinach that's included in spring mix. Pretty much solely interested in dandelion greens. I've looked for Collard Greens and escarole at the supermarket but the selection for those has looked like its already spoiling each time I go, so haven't gotten it. Are turnip greens a viable option as well? Can't remember on that one. I've only found a few poops and they are so tiny its hard to keep track of. Except for the fact that they are on or near the food slate. Pee has been spotted in nightly baths about 3 times in the last week or 1.5 weeks. Little white puddle. And I'm sure more in enclosure, but again, hard to tell.

I’d pick the spinach out if you can, it’s not very good for them especially if he’s having it daily, arugula should ideally not be fed daily too, it’s part of the brassica family which are high in goitrogens, too much of that can contribute to things like kidney stones, turnip greens are a viable option too yes but again need to be fed in moderation because they’re a brassica.
Broadleaf weeds are good, like plantain, let me paste this response from Tom on another thread;

“I prefer "natural" foods like a wide variety of weeds, leaves, flowers and succulents. Mulberry, hibiscus and grape leaves are all great. Lavatera flowers, spineless opuntia pads, Mazuri, Arcadia Optimized 52, Hikari Mulberiffic... There are so many good foods. Grocery store lettuce can work too as long as you add in the correct amendments. With the correct amendments, the lettuce essentially becomes a "vehicle" to get the good stuff into the tortoise, while adding some hydration too. Look to kapidolofarms.com for all sorts of great dried leaf options to add in, and tortoisesupply.com has Food Fixer and Herbal hay that I love, along with some great seed mixes. I like the "Testudo Seed Mix" for any species”

You can check out this site for how often to feed certain foods, there’s lots of safe weed options to look through in the ‘wildflower’ section too

Wild Flowers

Wild Flowers

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

We really like using this stuff

Each cube gets soaked in water to create a mushy grassy consistency, great way to get a healthy variety in, might take him some getting used to but if you can introduce it whilst he’s young that’d be great!

Does he ever poop during a soak? Not to worry though, if you’ve found poop in the enclosure there’s probably more in there hard to spot when they’re so tiny.

Hopefully some of the other food options might start tempting him again

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Obviously I can’t be certain, but I already know everything with your husbandry is spot on, so the only thing I could think of was diet, I’m wondering whether him sticking to the same things has been a contributor(I really don’t know for sure, but it’s worth introducing different foods from a young age either way, makes for them being less picky as adults)I’m hoping a wider variety might help the potential issue, variety is always key, you want to try and not feed too much of any one thing.
Introduce as slowly as it takes, go at his pace, no need to rush things, put a bit of something new in little by little, he might not take to it at first, but with some perseverance, he’ll warm up to new things

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Also just to add I don’t think squirt suddenly has a stone or anything like thatmy above response is more a word of caution about feeding too many brassicas(they’re all listed on that site)

The seed mix suggested by Tom is good to grown your own stuff too!

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

Also just to add I don’t think squirt suddenly has a stone or anything like thatmy above response is more a word of caution about feeding too many brassicas(they’re all listed on that site)

The seed mix suggested by Tom is good to grown your own stuff too!

The Arugula and spinach has just been very small amounts just to get Squirt to eat something different, and that wasn't already spoiled from the store. The supermarkets here don't have great variety of organic greens unfortunately.
We have also given some Mazuri juvenile pellets soaked in water. Tiny pinch every other day or every third day, just as something different. Ideally I'll start growing stuff in the backyard now that I have that option. But thats a whole other adventure to start.
Ill look to order for cactus pads that he mentioned, and the optimized52, and we'll as the food fixer from tortoise supply. Thank you.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

The Arugula and spinach has just been very small amounts just to get Squirt to eat something different, and that wasn't already spoiled from the store. The supermarkets here don't have great variety of organic greens unfortunately.
We have also given some Mazuri juvenile pellets soaked in water. Tiny pinch every other day or every third day, just as something different. Ideally I'll start growing stuff in the backyard now that I have that option. But thats a whole other adventure to start.
Ill look to order for cactus pads that he mentioned, and the optimized52, and we'll as the food fixer from tortoise supply. Thank you.

That’s understandable if your options have been limited, not to worry! It’s likely unrelated but was all I could really think of hereyeah the optimized stuff is great! Most relish it, some turn their nose up at first lol, but if he does take to it that would be a fantastic way to ensure he’s getting the balance he needs, it’s a bit pricey but does last a while, with squirt being so small still it’ll last you even longer

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

That’s understandable if your options have been limited, not to worry! It’s likely unrelated but was all I could really think of hereyeah the optimized stuff is great! Most relish it, some turn their nose up at first lol, but if he does take to it that would be a fantastic way to ensure he’s getting the balance he needs, it’s a bit pricey but does last a while, with squirt being so small still it’ll last you even longer

Thanks looking online for stuff now

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi! To my untrained eye Squirt looks healthy.

Don't worry too much about spinach (some calcium powder 2-3 times a week will negate effect of oxalates) and brassicas (goiterogens are more of a "city legend"). Neither would cause stones formation and are fine in a varied diet.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi! To my untrained eye Squirt looks healthy.

Don't worry too much about spinach (some calcium powder 2-3 times a week will negate effect of oxalates) and brassicas (goiterogens are more of a "city legend"). Neither would cause stones formation and are fine in a varied diet.

I personally wouldn’t want to feed too many brassicas in conjunction with one another if that makes sense, I've always been told it’s best to avoid feeding multiple types every day(including by our reputable exotic vet). I see spinach as a bit of a ‘junk food’ for torts, but agree that some now and again shouldn’t hurt

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I personally wouldn’t want to feed too many brassicas in conjunction with one another if that makes sense, I've always been told it’s best to avoid feeding multiple types every day(including by our reputable exotic vet). I see spinach as a bit of a ‘junk food’ for torts, but agree that some now and again shouldn’t hurt

Spinach has nice nutritional profile: iron, manganese, selene, vitamins A and K. So it's not a "filler" or "junk food". Oxalates can be an issue for mammals because of different kidney anatomy but not for tortoises. Imbalance in calcium intake is easily corrected.

As of brassicas - it doesn't matter if you feed 100g of kale alone or 100g of mustard greens, kale and arugula. Sum of goiterogens will be the same. To my knowledge (limited, I know), only one case of goiter has been documented in research papers and diet wasn't an isolated factor (no control group, just a post-morthem analysis).

 

[Squirt the Dalmation]

Spinach has nice nutritional profile: iron, manganese, selene, vitamins A and K. So it's not a "filler" or "junk food". Oxalates can be an issue for mammals because of different kidney anatomy but not for tortoises. Imbalance in calcium intake is easily corrected.

As of brassicas - it doesn't matter if you feed 100g of kale alone or 100g of mustard greens, kale and arugula. Sum of goiterogens will be the same. To my knowledge (limited, I know), only one case of goiter has been documented in research papers and diet wasn't an isolated factor (no control group, just a post-morthem analysis).

Thank you Alex

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Spinach has nice nutritional profile: iron, manganese, selene, vitamins A and K. So it's not a "filler" or "junk food". Oxalates can be an issue for mammals because of different kidney anatomy but not for tortoises. Imbalance in calcium intake is easily corrected.

As of brassicas - it doesn't matter if you feed 100g of kale alone or 100g of mustard greens, kale and arugula. Sum of goiterogens will be the same. To my knowledge (limited, I know), only one case of goiter has been documented in research papers and diet wasn't an isolated factor (no control group, just a post-morthem analysis).

Fair enough, it’s one I’ve been cautious of personally and always been conscious not to feed too many brassicas at once, or any one given food, I guess it’s all about moderation and variety, they’re definitely fine as part of a varied diet, I don’t like the thought of over doing it on things like spring greens everyday, we try to portion control certain things