Is this pyramiding?

[Jsvargas13]

What’s it like there

what’s it like there atm

It's good. Aside form COVID-19 everything is good. Our weather is reaching the 80's now so I've been able to let my sulcata out to get some sun rays.

 

[SKOLsuper]

Ok

 

[SKOLsuper]

It's good. Aside form COVID-19 everything is good. Our weather is reaching the 80's now so I've been able to let my sulcata out to get some sun rays.

Sound lovely Its not that hot here always raining

 

[KarenSoCal]

Thank you. They will be very helpful for some new member that's confused about enclosures.

 

[SKOLsuper]

Thank you. They will be very helpful for some new member that's confused about enclosures.

No problem x

 

[SKOLsuper]

No problem x

It might be a bit different set up because I live in England

 

[turtlesteve]

@zovick I’d love to hear further thoughts from you on pyramiding and how all these variables interact. Are you using sunlight or artificial UV?

I still get mild pyramiding sometimes despite UV, aggressive calcium supplementation, and high humidity. These cases of perfectly smooth tortoises raised without high humidity are intriguing - I’ve seen other examples too, even raised by people with no care knowledge (e.g. it lives in the yard and fends for itself). But most of the time, absent the humidity, we see bad pyramiding - even if UV, diet, etc. seem appropriate - why?

Steve

 

[zovick]

@turtlesteve
To answer your first question, I used artificial light exclusively for about the first 3 years of a tortoise's life. After that, I placed them outside when the weather was warm enough, but living in a place where winters get cold, they only went outside from May to September.

Regarding pyramiding, I don't claim to have all the answers, I just know that providing humidity alone without addressing any of the other factors I mentioned will not make for a good looking tortoise.

To be brief, tortoises have a lot of bone making up their shells. To grow that bone, they need calcium. To utilize the calcium, they need Vitamin D. To synthesize Vitamin D, they need UV light. No matter how humid they are kept, if those other factors are not present (by accident or by design), the growth will not be optimal.

This is the point I was trying to make to @Jsvargas13 and @iAmCentrochelys sulcata

 

[Jsvargas13]

@turtlesteve
To answer your first question, I used artificial light exclusively for about the first 3 years of a tortoise's life. After that, I placed them outside when the weather was warm enough, but living in a place where winters get cold, they only went outside from May to September.

Regarding pyramiding, I don't claim to have all the answers, I just know that providing humidity alone without addressing any of the other factors I mentioned will not make for a good looking tortoise.

To be brief, tortoises have a lot of bone making up their shells. To grow that bone, they need calcium. To utilize the calcium, they need Vitamin D. To synthesize Vitamin D, they need UV light. No matter how humid they are kept, if those other factors are not present (by accident or by design), the growth will not be optimal.

This is the point I was trying to make to @Jsvargas13 and @iAmCentrochelys sulcata

Hi, I was reading your response and had a quick question as I’m trying to address all the issues I have with my enclosure. I’m working on humidity at the moment. I let my sulcata out to catch some sun rays during the day since I’m in California and the temps have been in the high 70s low 80s. Do you suggest I still provide a Uv light in the enclosure? If so what type?

 

[zovick]

Hi, I was reading your response and had a quick question as I’m trying to address all the issues I have with my enclosure. I’m working on humidity at the moment. I let my sulcata out to catch some sun rays during the day since I’m in California and the temps have been in the high 70s low 80s. Do you suggest I still provide a Uv light in the enclosure? If so what type?

Yes, I would still recommend using a UV light for the time when the tortoise is indoors. Use a fluorescent tube. The Reptisun 10.0 UVB are great. I recommend about 14 to 16 hours a day of this lighting for most tortoises. In addition to the lighting, a proper diet, daily soaking, and vitamin and calcium supplements as discussed earlier are also important.

Here is my response to a question about UV light fixtures from a different thread:

madiandtito said:
I have an open air enclosure. Getting an 18 in. UVB bulb. Where can I get a fixture? An aquarium hood will not fit on her table. What do I search for the fixture?

You can look at this site for some fixture ideas: http://www.lllreptile.com/catalog/24-light-fixtures

You can also buy light fixtures from a hardware store or from Amazon. I used these Lithonia dual bulb fluorescent fixtures for my baby tortoises with two 48" T8 Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulbs: https://www.acehardware.com/departm...ical/work-and-shop-lights/shop-lights/3429487

You can hang the Lithonia fixture above from the ceiling, make a frame on which to place it or from which to hang it, or if your enclosure is the right dimensions, you can just rest it on top. Using this fixture with the two bulbs I mentioned you should set it about 10" above the substrate to get the right amount of UV for your tortoise.

If you want to be really correct, you need to get a Solarmeter (the 6.5 model only) and read the UV with that. For baby tortoises, I used a reading of 3.0 on that Solarmeter. The reading is controlled by adjusting the height of the fixture above the substrate.

 

[Jsvargas13]

Yes, I would still recommend using a UV light for the time when the tortoise is indoors. Use a fluorescent tube. The Reptisun 10.0 UVB are great. I recommend about 14 to 16 hours a day of this lighting for most tortoises. In addition to the lighting, a proper diet, daily soaking, and vitamin and calcium supplements as discussed earlier are also important.

Here is my response to a question about UV light fixtures from a different thread:

You can look at this site for some fixture ideas: http://www.lllreptile.com/catalog/24-light-fixtures

You can also buy light fixtures from a hardware store or from Amazon. I used these Lithonia dual bulb fluorescent fixtures for my baby tortoises with two 48" T8 Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulbs: https://www.acehardware.com/departm...ical/work-and-shop-lights/shop-lights/3429487

You can hang the Lithonia fixture above from the ceiling, make a frame on which to place it or from which to hang it, or if your enclosure is the right dimensions, you can just rest it on top. Using this fixture with the two bulbs I mentioned you should set it about 10" above the substrate to get the right amount of UV for your tortoise.

If you want to be really correct, you need to get a Solarmeter (the 6.5 model only) and read the UV with that. For baby tortoises, I used a reading of 3.0 on that Solarmeter. The reading is controlled by adjusting the height of the fixture above the substrate.

Great, so does T5 or T8 make a difference?
Also, what vitamins does a tortoise need?

 

[Jsvargas13]

Solar Basking Spot also uvhttps://www.googleadservices.com/pa...wj__8iN8_rpAhWKShUIHdsvACEQwg96BAgKEBI&adurl=
View attachment 297099

Hi again Sorry to bother you again. But what type of light and fixture are you using here?

 

[zovick]

Great, so does T5 or T8 make a difference?
Also, what vitamins does a tortoise need?

T5 and T8 designations indicate the diameter of the bulbs. T5 bulbs are 0.625" in diameter and T8 bulbs are 1.00" in diameter. Each of them requires a different fixture because the electrodes are different sizes and different distances apart on each one. You need to decide which bulb you want to use BEFORE buying the appropriate fixture for that size bulb. The T5 bulbs are quite strong and give off a good bit of heat. I don't recommend you put the T5 bulbs too close to your tortoise without using the Solarmeter (6.5 model only) to see how strong the UV is in the enclosure. Personally, I like the T8 bulbs better for really young tortoises as the T8 bulbs are less harsh and my baby tortoises seemed to tolerate them better than the T5 bulbs.

As for vitamins, I used Herptivite vitamins and Ultrafine Rep-Cal WITH D3 and sprinkled both on the tortoise food daily. You can buy both of those from LLL Reptile Supply.

 

[Jsvargas13]

Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to explain. I’ll go with the T8.

 

[Jsvargas13]

T5 and T8 designations indicate the diameter of the bulbs. T5 bulbs are 0.625" in diameter and T8 bulbs are 1.00" in diameter. Each of them requires a different fixture because the electrodes are different sizes and different distances apart on each one. You need to decide which bulb you want to use BEFORE buying the appropriate fixture for that size bulb. The T5 bulbs are quite strong and give off a good bit of heat. I don't recommend you put the T5 bulbs too close to your tortoise without using the Solarmeter (6.5 model only) to see how strong the UV is in the enclosure. Personally, I like the T8 bulbs better for really young tortoises as the T8 bulbs are less harsh and my baby tortoises seemed to tolerate them better than the T5 bulbs.

As for vitamins, I used Herptivite vitamins and Ultrafine Rep-Cal WITH D3 and sprinkled both on the tortoise food daily. You can buy both of those from LLL Reptile Supply.

One last question, sorry to keep bothering you ?. How far away does each light (basking, uv, and che) need to be from tortoise?

 

[JustLivingLife714]

@SKOLsuper
Not sure if you were directing your question to me or not, but if so, I soaked my tortoises EVERY morning (so 7 times weekly) until they were 3-4 years old or even a bit older. I only offered them cuttle bone occasionally but I religiously sprinkled their food daily with Ultrafine Rep-Cal WITH Vitamin D3 as well as with Herptivite.

Your tortoise looks very nice. Have you been raising it in a closed chamber and soaking it about 4X weekly?

Hi @zovick , is this the source you use for vitamin D3?

REP-CAL Calcium with Vitamin D3 Ultrafine Powder Reptile Supplement, 3.3-oz jar - Chewy.com

Buy Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3 Ultrafine Powder Reptile Supplement, 3.3-oz jar at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!

www.chewy.com

 

[zovick]

Hi @zovick , is this the source you use for vitamin D3?

REP-CAL Calcium with Vitamin D3 Ultrafine Powder Reptile Supplement, 3.3-oz jar - Chewy.com

Buy Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3 Ultrafine Powder Reptile Supplement, 3.3-oz jar at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!

www.chewy.com

@JustLivingLife714
Yes, that is the calcium supplement I recommend. It is made from oyster shells which are a naturally produced organic form of calcium. IMHO it is much superior to simply buying calcium powder or calcium pills from a health food store or a drug store.
The same company makes the vitamin supplement I recommend, Herptivite. Here is that link: https://www.chewy.com/rep-cal-herpt...nmVD08y_CvK2Z1Ia3ZpNJLcqXnsiF8pxoC6esQAvD_BwE

 

[zovick]

One last question, sorry to keep bothering you ?. How far away does each light (basking, uv, and che) need to be from tortoise?

@Jsvargas13
I cannot really answer the question you asked on the correct distance for each of the lights because that needs to be determined by actual experimentation in your exact set-up. I have mentioned that the UV light needs to be set at a distance which gives a reading of about 3.0 or so on a Solarmeter 6.5. The type of bulb (T5, T8, etc,) will make a difference in how high above the substrate to mount the fixture to get that reading. As for basking and CHE, I think you need to experiment and measure the temperature under each one and try to get about 95F to 100F under the heat emitter for a hot spot and perhaps 80F or so under the basking light area.

 

[OkAdiza]

Oh, I think I was doing things pretty well, probably even before your parents were born, and in the days before internet forums, how-to books, videos, etc., were invented and began offering people unlimited advice and guidance.

What I am trying to help you and the original poster understand is that these factors are all inter-related, it is not just a one factor problem. IE, plenty of humidity alone without daily soaks, excellent UV lighting, a good diet, and adequate calcium and vitamin intake is not going to produce good looking growth in a tortoise.

Check out these three tortoises. All were hatched and raised entirely indoors by me from day one. They are one, two, and three years of age in the photo. They were raised in open top tubs with absolutely no effort made to control the humidity of their environments. I didn't even provide humid hide boxes for them. All the other factors I have mentioned (daily soaking, a good diet, superb UV lighting, adequate calcium and Vitamin D) were given to them. These tortoises are not severely pyramided (if one could call them pyramided at all) and they had NO humidity provided (other than that of the ambient air in a heated room which is very minimal).

View attachment 296952

Wow! These tortoises are absolutely stunning!!! ?

 

[zovick]

Wow! These tortoises are absolutely stunning!!! ?

Thank you very much. They are the result of nearly 50 years of work selectively breeding and raising up babies to produce 3 generations of 100% CB offspring descended from my original WC adults from the 1960's.