How to convert my tortoise to a grass and Timothy hay diet.

[TortCalledBoris]

I got my baby sulcata Hank a few days ago. This is the fourth day I have had him. He already lets me hand feed him and rub his head which is so much fun but I don’t know if he is eating his hay or not. I think that he might have had a bit yesterday but I don’t know for certain. I tried hand feeding him some and he doesn’t normally go for it, but when he does, he struggles to bite it off and pull it apart. I have been feeding lambs lettuce (home grown), opuntia cactus (also home grown), campanula plant (another home grown plant), and some mustard weeds to try and get him used to the grassy diet. Does anyone have any tips to converting my tortoise to a grassy diet? Help is appreciated

 

[wellington]

Babies don't usually eat hay or grass easy when not started on it
Don't use Timothy hay, too woody. Orchard hay is much better.
Cut both grass and hay up in tiny pieces. Soak the hay to soften it some and mix into it's favorite food. Be consistent and as he gets to eating it, use less of the other food and more of the grass and hay.

 

[TammyJ]

Wellington said it!

 

[Tom]

I got my baby sulcata Hank a few days ago. This is the fourth day I have had him. He already lets me hand feed him and rub his head which is so much fun but I don’t know if he is eating his hay or not. I think that he might have had a bit yesterday but I don’t know for certain. I tried hand feeding him some and he doesn’t normally go for it, but when he does, he struggles to bite it off and pull it apart. I have been feeding lambs lettuce (home grown), opuntia cactus (also home grown), campanula plant (another home grown plant), and some mustard weeds to try and get him used to the grassy diet. Does anyone have any tips to converting my tortoise to a grassy diet? Help is appreciated

Grass hay is for adults, not babies. Don't even start with the hay until the tortoise is 12+ inches. When you do start with the hay, use orchard grass hay or Bermuda hay, not Timothy. We can talk about ways to introduce it when your baby gets larger.

In the mean time, the answers you seek are here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

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The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Grass hay is for adults, not babies. Don't even start with the hay until the tortoise is 12+ inches. When you do start with the hay, use orchard grass hay or Bermuda hay, not Timothy. We can talk about ways to introduce it when your baby gets larger.

In the mean time, the answers you seek are here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Thanks a lot, I have another tortoise who is a Russian. He doesn’t eat hay or grass so I don’t have any experience with this yet. Your information really helped me.

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Babies don't usually eat hay or grass easy when not started on it
Don't use Timothy hay, too woody. Orchard hay is much better.
Cut both grass and hay up in tiny pieces. Soak the hay to soften it some and mix into it's favorite food. Be consistent and as he gets to eating it, use less of the other food and more of the grass and hay.

Thank you as well. Timothy hay was recommended by the breeder but I will try orchard instead. At the pets store it’s super cheap, only 6 pounds for a bale of Timothy and 5 for orchard. I was currently trying to mix some Timothy but I wasn’t sure if they were eating it. Can I still put timothy into their enclosure for warmth or should I replace it with orchard?

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Grass hay is for adults, not babies. Don't even start with the hay until the tortoise is 12+ inches. When you do start with the hay, use orchard grass hay or Bermuda hay, not Timothy. We can talk about ways to introduce it when your baby gets larger.

In the mean time, the answers you seek are here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

I also just wanted to ask something about urates. So my baby sulcata Hank has some rates that are quite powdery, so I am trying to hydrate him more. I give him a 25 minute soak every day in the mornings and every day I see that his water dish is empty yet he still has powdery urates. He has had powdery urates since yesterday so I am just wondering if they will soon start to water down and improve or there is something else wrong. The humidity during the day is 40-48 percent and 80-90 at night. I use sphagnum moss in one of their hides with a coco fibre substrate. Is he getting to much nutrients or not enough hydration please let me know. This is my fifth day having Hank. Help is appreciated

 

[Tom]

I also just wanted to ask something about urates. So my baby sulcata Hank has some rates that are quite powdery, so I am trying to hydrate him more. I give him a 25 minute soak every day in the mornings and every day I see that his water dish is empty yet he still has powdery urates. He has had powdery urates since yesterday so I am just wondering if they will soon start to water down and improve or there is something else wrong. The humidity during the day is 40-48 percent and 80-90 at night. I use sphagnum moss in one of their hides with a coco fibre substrate. Is he getting to much nutrients or not enough hydration please let me know. This is my fifth day having Hank. Help is appreciated

Please read the care sheet. You are making many of the commonly made mistakes.

1. Hay has no place in a Russian or baby tortoise enclosure. It molds and they don't eat it. Save the hay for when your sulcata get larger. I don't even begin to introduce hay until they are 12+ inches. You are going to get bad info from a pet shop.
2. No moss. They eat it and it can cause impaction. It does nothing that damp substrate doesn't do.
3. Your urate problem is the same problem as the humidity problem. You need a large closed chamber and humidity needs to be over 80% day and night. Try to recreate tropical monsoon conditions. Hot and humid. Think of conditions in the Sahel where it is 37C and raining, and the little babies are underneath a meter of thick underbrush.
4. Soak for 30-40 minutes minimum, and keep the water warm for the entire soak. Soaking for 60-120 minutes will do no harm. I soak them inside their heated closed chamber enclosures to keep the water warm.

Your baby doesn't have time for you to learn these things the hard way. Most breeders do not start them correctly, which the urates demonstrate, so your baby has already had a rough start in life.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Yeah, so baby tortoises don't seek dead grass, which is what hay is right - dead grass. They will eat live grass that is very soft. I've used the cat grass (wheat Grass) from big box pet stores, as well as the same for people from grocery stores. Organic is more common than conventional. They will eat this, it is soft and easy to bite.

As this store bought grass slowly dies it become soft hay. That's how it works, they learn to eat dead grass from the habit of eating live grass. I speculate that after a few years of this going on in the wild, the idea of eating hay (dead grass) is ingrained.

Baby tortoises can get too much high fiber, as their intestinal track has not developed the muscles to create and move a bolus of food. Their first meals from an absorbed yolk are a thick liquid. Baby tortoises also do not have a developed gut microflora which is also part of the high fiber diet system.

I have fed the 'cat' grass to leopards, testudo, redfoots and Manouria just a few days out of the egg and had no problem. But it's full of water and soft. Baby tortoises need lots of water and I' don't suggest they get any dry food as a stand alone diet item, like hay (dead grass).

I agree with Tom that timothy is not an optimal choice and that Bermuda, and orchard are much better. I do not know how Timothy has become so popular with tortoise keepers. When I have talked with cattlemen they tell me based on cow/horse reaction that timothy is the least palatable grass or hay.

Once they are a few months old or at about 50 grams (two ounces) you can introduce some dry grass. But a very small amount. This is often done with pelleted foods like the ZooMed grassland that has been softened with water, broken up and mixed in with fresh greens. Or pure grass pellets. same treatment - soften with water, broken up and and mixed in with fresh greens.

Warning alert, Kapidolo Farms advertisement now...
https://www.kapidolofarms.com/product/tortoise-grass-barley-oat-wheat/.
These are green hays, that is it is dead grass, so hay, but milled right away from fresh and a dark green in color. Particle size is about 2 mm or 1/16 inch. Three species, Barley, Wheat and Oat. All organic sourced. Like with other hays for small tortoises, mix in with fresh greens so that water consumption in foods stays high.

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Yeah, so baby tortoises don't seek dead grass, which is what hay is right - dead grass. They will eat live grass that is very soft. I've used the cat grass (wheat Grass) from big box pet stores, as well as the same for people from grocery stores. Organic is more common than conventional. They will eat this, it is soft and easy to bite.

As this store bought grass slowly dies it become soft hay. That's how it works, they learn to eat dead grass from the habit of eating live grass. I speculate that after a few years of this going on in the wild, the idea of eating hay (dead grass) is ingrained.

Baby tortoises can get too much high fiber, as their intestinal track has not developed the muscles to create and move a bolus of food. Their first meals from an absorbed yolk are a thick liquid. Baby tortoises also do not have a developed gut microflora which is also part of the high fiber diet system.

I have fed the 'cat' grass to leopards, testudo, redfoots and Manouria just a few days out of the egg and had no problem. But it's full of water and soft. Baby tortoises need lots of water and I' don't suggest they get any dry food as a stand alone diet item, like hay (dead grass).

I agree with Tom that timothy is not an optimal choice and that Bermuda, and orchard are much better. I do not know how Timothy has become so popular with tortoise keepers. When I have talked with cattlemen they tell me based on cow/horse reaction that timothy is the least palatable grass or hay.

Once they are a few months old or at about 50 grams (two ounces) you can introduce some dry grass. But a very small amount. This is often done with pelleted foods like the ZooMed grassland that has been softened with water, broken up and mixed in with fresh greens. Or pure grass pellets. same treatment - soften with water, broken up and and mixed in with fresh greens.

Warning alert, Kapidolo Farms advertisement now...
https://www.kapidolofarms.com/product/tortoise-grass-barley-oat-wheat/.
These are green hays, that is it is dead grass, so hay, but milled right away from fresh and a dark green in color. Particle size is about 2 mm or 1/16 inch. Three species, Barley, Wheat and Oat. All organic sourced. Like with other hays for small tortoises, mix in with fresh greens so that water consumption in foods stays high.

Wow that was really damn helpful. Hank is 62 grams from when I weighed him this morning. I have currently made his diet out of campanula plant, broadleaf plantain, lambs lettuce, occasionally some romaine because it’s pretty much just water, opuntia cactus and hibiscus. I am ordering orchard grass now and I am getting some cat grass seed now to start to grow. You and Tom have really helped me out and I want to say a big thanks. I spent the afternoon making a lid for the tortoise table to cover it off. I hope to come back soon with pictures of Hank with a perfect, smooth shell. Thank you

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Please read the care sheet. You are making many of the commonly made mistakes.

1. Hay has no place in a Russian or baby tortoise enclosure. It molds and they don't eat it. Save the hay for when your sulcata get larger. I don't even begin to introduce hay until they are 12+ inches. You are going to get bad info from a pet shop.
2. No moss. They eat it and it can cause impaction. It does nothing that damp substrate doesn't do.
3. Your urate problem is the same problem as the humidity problem. You need a large closed chamber and humidity needs to be over 80% day and night. Try to recreate tropical monsoon conditions. Hot and humid. Think of conditions in the Sahel where it is 37C and raining, and the little babies are underneath a meter of thick underbrush.
4. Soak for 30-40 minutes minimum, and keep the water warm for the entire soak. Soaking for 60-120 minutes will do no harm. I soak them inside their heated closed chamber enclosures to keep the water warm.

Your baby doesn't have time for you to learn these things the hard way. Most breeders do not start them correctly, which the urates demonstrate, so your baby has already had a rough start in life.

Thanks for your response. I read both care sheets twice and took note of some things. I just had two questions. You mentioned that coco fibre isn’t a good substrate in the baby tortoise care sheet but coco coir is a good substrate in the sulcata care sheet. I was wondering if I could mix repti-bark and coco coir as the substrate? I made a lid/cover for my tortoise table today to keep the humidity inside. It looks pretty cool actually. I have the temperatures around 35-38 degrees centigrade and humidity levels during the day set to 80 during the day and night with my new humidifier attached to the tortoise table. I completed the absolutely gruelling task of clearing timothy hay out of the substrate for an hour! Bought a bigger water dish because he was draining the old one. This one is a medium sized terracotta shallow pot - tray thingy holding around triple the old ones water. Do you have any tips that I could do to make sure that I am not over feeding my tortoise because that isn’t great? Last question, is daily roam time in the garden ok? I don’t let my tortoises out of my sight, quite frankly they are too cool for me to, but if I need something inside I will take them with me indoors and then back out again. I watch them from predators and spent a day researching all the plants in my garden on tortoise table making sure my garden is tortoise safe! I always monitor them so I was wondering if that was ok to do? I have started construction on a outdoor enclosure to put on the grass for summer protecting the, from predators and escaping for the odd occasion I am not watching them. Is this ok for now as response to my beginner mistakes?

 

[zolasmum]

I don't really think you can over-feed a tortoise, as long as you are offering the correct foods.They are grazing animals, and don't have special feeding times in the wild
Angie

 

[Tom]

I was wondering if I could mix repti-bark and coco coir as the substrate?

Yes, but why? It serves no purpose to mix them. Coco coir can work for little sulcatas, but fine grade orchid bark is better.

 

[Tom]

...with my new humidifier attached to the tortoise table.

I would not have a humidifier blowing directly into a tortoise enclosure. I don't like them breathing those micro-droplets. Humidity should be maintained by using damp substrate and reducing ventilation.

Do you have any tips that I could do to make sure that I am not over feeding my tortoise because that isn’t great?

You can't over feed a tortoise. That is an old myth from the days when we though pyramiding was caused by food or faster growth. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Not by food. The other information wherever you read that is likely full of other wrong info.

Last question, is daily roam time in the garden ok? I don’t let my tortoises out of my sight, quite frankly they are too cool for me to, but if I need something inside I will take them with me indoors and then back out again. I watch them from predators and spent a day researching all the plants in my garden on tortoise table making sure my garden is tortoise safe! I always monitor them so I was wondering if that was ok to do?

Not okay. Tortoises should never be roaming loose. If you continue this, you will eventually lose your tortoise in one way or another. Its also too cold outside for a sulcata there isn't it? Make a safe secure enclosure, and then its okay for the baby to have an hour of outside time a few times a week when the weather is warm. More outside time is good as it gains size, but not too much when it is a little baby.

 

[TortCalledBoris]

I would not have a humidifier blowing directly into a tortoise enclosure. I don't like them breathing those micro-droplets. Humidity should be maintained by using damp substrate and reducing ventilation.


You can't over feed a tortoise. That is an old myth from the days when we though pyramiding was caused by food or faster growth. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Not by food. The other information wherever you read that is likely full of other wrong info.


Not okay. Tortoises should never be roaming loose. If you continue this, you will eventually lose your tortoise in one way or another. Its also too cold outside for a sulcata there isn't it? Make a safe secure enclosure, and then its okay for the baby to have an hour of outside time a few times a week when the weather is warm. More outside time is good as it gains size, but not too much when it is a little baby.

Should I try to “bulk him up” whilst he is so young? He has both an indoor and outdoor enclosure. Indoor enclosure has a high output T5 UVB bulb with a basking lamp, thermostat humidifier, coco coir substrate, and some reptibark around the feeding slate to stay warm. Outdoor enclosure is built into my shed. It has insulating foam in the corners of it to prevent heat escaping from there. Reflective tin foil on the side to reflect any heat and light. Some orchard hay bundled in the corner of it to be eaten or just lay in. I have a basking bulb and another T5 tube. The substrate is reptibark on the inside, but it has an outdoor area I built yesterday. Metal fencing / mesh to protect from predators like birds. This can be flipped up so I have access to them. There are some safe plants in the enclosure growing on the outside bit that they can eat. I am not letting them inside of that right now due to it still being quite cold outside. Do you think that this is good enough for an outdoor enclosure? I am waiting for the temperature to warm up and the plants to start growing as a nice treat. There is also some grass growing inside of it. Connecting the indoor and outdoor enclosure is a transparent plastic sheet that they can walk through. It is big enough to fit an almost fully grown sulcata tortoise and I think this will do the job. Whilst he is younger I will keep him indoors, but when I want to take him outside during the summer holiday I will use that. Any suggestions to improve?

 

[Tom]

Should I try to “bulk him up” whilst he is so young?

Forget all these concepts of "bulking up" or fast growth or slow growth. Its all non-sense. Just feed your tortoise the right foods and let him/her eat. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, opuntia, etc...

Indoor enclosure has a high output T5 UVB bulb with a basking lamp, thermostat humidifier, coco coir substrate, and some reptibark around the feeding slate to stay warm.

Don't have a humidifier blowing directly into the enclosure. With the correct enclosure it is not needed. How does repti-bark do anything to keep things warm? Heat sources generate warmth. A closed chamber contains your generated warmth. The basking lamp and HO tube sound great, but what are you using for ambient temperature maintenance all day and at night?

I prefer feeding out of a terra cotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate to contain the food and reduce substrate ingestion.

Outdoor enclosure is built into my shed. It has insulating foam in the corners of it to prevent heat escaping from there. Reflective tin foil on the side to reflect any heat and light. Some orchard hay bundled in the corner of it to be eaten or just lay in. I have a basking bulb and another T5 tube. The substrate is reptibark on the inside, but it has an outdoor area I built yesterday. Metal fencing / mesh to protect from predators like birds. This can be flipped up so I have access to them. There are some safe plants in the enclosure growing on the outside bit that they can eat. I am not letting them inside of that right now due to it still being quite cold outside. Do you think that this is good enough for an outdoor enclosure? I am waiting for the temperature to warm up and the plants to start growing as a nice treat. There is also some grass growing inside of it. Connecting the indoor and outdoor enclosure is a transparent plastic sheet that they can walk through. It is big enough to fit an almost fully grown sulcata tortoise and I think this will do the job. Whilst he is younger I will keep him indoors, but when I want to take him outside during the summer holiday I will use that. Any suggestions to improve?

The whole shed needs to be thoroughly insulated, not just the corners and not just with tinfoil.

No need for hay for a baby. I'd remove that until he is much larger.

No need for UV when the tortoise is outside.

What are the dimensions of the outdoor enclosure? Pictures of it would help us to understand and offer better advice.

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Forget all these concepts of "bulking up" or fast growth or slow growth. Its all non-sense. Just feed your tortoise the right foods and let him/her eat. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, opuntia, etc...


Don't have a humidifier blowing directly into the enclosure. With the correct enclosure it is not needed. How does repti-bark do anything to keep things warm? Heat sources generate warmth. A closed chamber contains your generated warmth. The basking lamp and HO tube sound great, but what are you using for ambient temperature maintenance all day and at night?

I prefer feeding out of a terra cotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate to contain the food and reduce substrate ingestion.


The whole shed needs to be thoroughly insulated, not just the corners and not just with tinfoil.

No need for hay for a baby. I'd remove that until he is much larger.

No need for UV when the tortoise is outside.

What are the dimensions of the outdoor enclosure? Pictures of it would help us to understand and offer better advice.

I use the reptibark around the feeding slate to prevent substrate ingestion like you mentioned. So there is no coco coir around the slate in case of food falling off. Dimensions of the shed are 2 meters long, 2 high and 3 wide. That’s for the indoor bit. The indoor bit for the winter months (when I seal off the outdoors to them) has insulating foam in the corners and on the walls with tin foil over the foam on the walls. Has a heat mat too. Wood (like some other solid materials) absorbs heat hence why I have it as a substrate in the indoor section. I will take a photo and post it as soon as I get home.
I will remove the hay like you said.
I also use a dimming thermostat. The urates have also completely gone.
thanks

 

[Tom]

I use the reptibark around the feeding slate to prevent substrate ingestion like you mentioned. So there is no coco coir around the slate in case of food falling off. Dimensions of the shed are 2 meters long, 2 high and 3 wide. That’s for the indoor bit. The indoor bit for the winter months (when I seal off the outdoors to them) has insulating foam in the corners and on the walls with tin foil over the foam on the walls. Has a heat mat too. Wood (like some other solid materials) absorbs heat hence why I have it as a substrate in the indoor section. I will take a photo and post it as soon as I get home.
I will remove the hay like you said.
I also use a dimming thermostat. The urates have also completely gone.
thanks

You will need to protect the insulation in the shed with plywood, or something similarly suitable. At least 18-24 inches tall.

What heating device is controlled by the dimming thermostat? Those are great for CHEs or RHPs to control ambient temperatures, but not for a basking bulb. The basking bulb should be set on a timer. You don't want the "sun" turning on and off all day.

What type of heat mat and where? Heat mats should not be used for smaller tortoises in indoor enclosures. Large pig blanket style heat mats are a great part of a heating strategy for outdoor housing for larger tortoises.

2x3 meters of floor space is not going to last long for a sulcata. Start planing something much large for next year...

 

[TortCalledBoris]

Hank also still has his egg tooth. I haven’t seen any baby still have an egg tooth before. He is around 3 months old. Should I be concerned?

 

[Tom]

Hank also still has his egg tooth. I haven’t seen any baby still have an egg tooth before. He is around 3 months old. Should I be concerned?

Answered on your other thread...