How many tortoises?

Rhoen1

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Hi :) I plan to buy several Hermanns in the spring, and have a really neat plan for a 96sqft enclosure. I live in Canada, so it has to be indoors, but I plan to plant some edible plants from organic seeds, and grow organic food for them. I'm wondering though, I've heard that having one male to two females is okay, but is it okay to have two males and four females? And would two males, four females even work in my enclosure? I hope to one day breed, and will be keeping them separate as babies into either males and females or 1:2, and 1:2. Would that be effective, and suitable for them?
Tl;Dr:
1) is 96sqft enough for 2 male 4 female Hermann tortoise?
2) is a ratio of 1:2 okay with more than one male?
3) should I raise them together, or keep them separate as babies? If separate, should it be males and females, or two groups of a male and two females?

Thanks! :D
 

Yvonne G

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I don't know anything about the Hermanni tortoise species, but my stock answer to multiples indoors is - unless you can provide a very large, well-planted habitat, don't do it. Tortoises are solitary creatures and fight to chase other tortoises out of their territory. We get away with it outside because we can give them a large enough space that they can have their own territories.

let's send a shout-out to @HermanniChris and see if he can give you any insight into this question.
 

Yvonne G

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...and I forgot to mention that you can't know the sex of a tortoise until it has almost reached full size.
 

leigti

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Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure what age a Hermann tortoise has to be before you know the sex. Pears don't work at all. A 1 to 2 ratio male to female is the absolute minimum. 1 to 3 or even more would be better. A 96 ft.² enclosure isn't big enough for six tortoises. 8 x 4 is good for one tortoise.
It is much harder when they can't be outdoors. I live in Washington state and my tortoises are outdoors full-time for 3 to 4 months and part-time for another 2 to 3 months. It can be done you just need a lot of space, very good bulbs, and you're definitely a UV meter to make sure your bulbs are giving out the proper amounts of UV.
I really am not trying to sound discouraging. Anything can be done with enough space, time, and money.
 

Rhoen1

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I plan to have several UV bulbs at different points, to make multiple basking spots. It's L shaped, to give a bit of room to hide, and I plan to plant it. Hermanns can be incubated for different genders, which is why I figured I'd get hatchlings. I'm going to try to simulate an outdoor environment, but I understand what you guys are saying. The problem is here it's too cold out 7 months of the year, and my neighbours own dogs.
 

leigti

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Probably about 1000 ft.². And you might have one or two or more that have to be completely separated from the group because they are just plain cranky. So no matter what once they hit adulthood you're going to need several separate enclosures.
 

Rhoen1

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Fair enough. I'll think on it. I'm likely going to get one male and two females.
 

wellington

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Fair enough. I'll think on it. I'm likely going to get one male and two females.
I think this would work best for you. 2 males to any amount of females in that size enclosure probably wouldn't work. They males could still fight and you would have to seperate. Also, be sure to make an outdoor enclosure for them. Even if it's for a couple months that they can be outside, it's better then never.
 

Tom

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I would not have more than one adult male per enclosure.

I would prefer three females to each male in most cases, unless to happen to end of with one of those really mild mannered dudes.

I would raise the babies all together and separate as needed.
 

Rhoen1

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Thanks guys :) my main worry with outdoors is that we have a dog. A nice sea cucumber of a dog, but a dog. And I'm also worried because people in my area are sort of a$$holes just because they can be, so I would worry about people hurting or turtle-napping them. And there are lots of stray cats. It's a bad area, unless there's someone there watching them constantly. Likely I'll still buy something I can move around outside, and just sit with them :)
 

Tom

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Thanks guys :) my main worry with outdoors is that we have a dog. A nice sea cucumber of a dog, but a dog. And I'm also worried because people in my area are sort of a$$holes just because they can be, so I would worry about people hurting or turtle-napping them. And there are lots of stray cats. It's a bad area, unless there's someone there watching them constantly. Likely I'll still buy something I can move around outside, and just sit with them :)

You can make an outdoor area with a lockable cover to keep out unwanted riffraff of all species.
 

Rhoen1

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We do, and it latches, but our neighbours (who are very nice) go through sometimes, and so do family. It would be tough to actually put a lock on it, but a locking mesh lid would probably work.
 

leigti

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It's also a good idea not to tell everybody on the planet that you have the tortoises in the first place. And you can bring them in at night or put them in a locked box at night
 

HermanniChris

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I avoid doing pairs together for the same reasons most people do although at times I will house a pair together only temporarily with no issues at all. Most are in groups, small to fairly large. All our Hermann's subspecies and locales are broken down to manageable groups anywhere from as small as 2.3 to 6.15 adults. I always prefer to have multiple males as it has proven to show the best results both reproductive wise and behavior wise. It's very natural. Males get to fight and are supervised for the most part which enables a very naturalistic setting and promotes competition.

I have several open pens ready separate out aggressors though. That's important.

Males are important when it comes to the T. hermanni species complex. More so than with T. marginata for example.

For protection, we do a lot. Dogs (extremely effective), motion sensors with lights so bright you'll go blind, electric fences both invisible and visible, full camera system with motion sensors and we set traps every night. So, to put it bluntly, someone or something is getting seriously injured if they ever tried something out here. It's all so worth it and allows you to sleep quite well at night.

If you need any ideas on Hermann's stuff feel free to check out my site:

HermanniHaven.com

I try to outline as much as possible on it and still have a lot of work to do but it has come along nicely.
 

Gillian M

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A very warm welcome to the forum!:tort:

I'd be more than careful: you have a dog, and there are cats around.
 

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