Help please, my head is hurting!

[Phil Fishinger]

As my first post, hello to all 😊

I’m just starting out with tortoises, as a grand father I’m taking a responsible approach of doing research on this, for several weeks now.

I have my eye on a year old Herman from a reptile specialist, it’s almost impossible to get a tortoise in Northern Ireland or I’d be going straight to a reputable breeder like I’m sure you’d all suggest, anyhow..

I’ve just order a 4ft x 2ft table and stand, where I’m struggling is substrate, one site says 50/50 on top soil and play sand and the next will say never use sand, another site will say this and the next site will say woah never use that!

Then of course there’s the old US vs UK differences I’m coming across on humidity and spraying the substrate, I want the best care for my new to be addition to the family but it’s confusion day after day.

Any advice please?

 

[wellington]

Your best info will be reading what to do and use from this forum, forget all the other places you have searched on.
No sand can cause impaction. If it's a hatchling a closed chamber is needed not a table. If an adult a minimum of a 4x8 enclosure is needed.

 

[Phil Fishinger]

Thank you. I’ve heard, in many different places that play sand is safe.

 

[Yvonne G]

Thank you. I’ve heard, in many different places that play sand is safe.

That's the old way of thinking. We've since learned that when they track sand over the food then eat sand covered food it leads to sand impaction. . . and if not addressed, death.

 

[Phil Fishinger]

That's the old way of thinking. We've since learned that when they track sand over the food then eat sand covered food it leads to sand impaction. . . and if not addressed, death.

Ok then no sand. Food wise I’m think a slate slab so food is eaten away from the substrate. Substrate wise I’m now looking at coco coir

 

[Tom]

As my first post, hello to all 😊

I’m just starting out with tortoises, as a grand father I’m taking a responsible approach of doing research on this, for several weeks now.

I have my eye on a year old Herman from a reptile specialist, it’s almost impossible to get a tortoise in Northern Ireland or I’d be going straight to a reputable breeder like I’m sure you’d all suggest, anyhow..

I’ve just order a 4ft x 2ft table and stand, where I’m struggling is substrate, one site says 50/50 on top soil and play sand and the next will say never use sand, another site will say this and the next site will say woah never use that!

Then of course there’s the old US vs UK differences I’m coming across on humidity and spraying the substrate, I want the best care for my new to be addition to the family but it’s confusion day after day.

Any advice please?

You are experiencing what almost everyone experiences. Its sad, but the same wrong info has been parroted for decades. Vets, breeders, internet experts, etc... all saying the same wrong stuff. You are one of the lucky ones that found us!

Read through this a couple of times, and then let fly with all your questions. We will explain why we make these assertions in the way Yvonne just explained the sand thing. We will help you wade through the misinformation and contradictions.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[PollyAda]

As my first post, hello to all 😊

I’m just starting out with tortoises, as a grand father I’m taking a responsible approach of doing research on this, for several weeks now.

I have my eye on a year old Herman from a reptile specialist, it’s almost impossible to get a tortoise in Northern Ireland or I’d be going straight to a reputable breeder like I’m sure you’d all suggest, anyhow..

I’ve just order a 4ft x 2ft table and stand, where I’m struggling is substrate, one site says 50/50 on top soil and play sand and the next will say never use sand, another site will say this and the next site will say woah never use that!

Then of course there’s the old US vs UK differences I’m coming across on humidity and spraying the substrate, I want the best care for my new to be addition to the family but it’s confusion day after day.

Any advice please?

Have a read of this care sheet if not done so already https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

Also, take a look at https://www.hermannihaven.com/general

For substrate, many forum members favour fine grade orchid bark and/or coco coir (which you can buy ground up into a soil texture, and coarse (I use a mix of fine and coarse coco coir). If you opt for orchid bark, best to go with a fine grade for growing legs to move around fairly easily on).

Both of these substrates hold moisture well, which will help to maintain high humidity in your enclosure (80% humidity is recommended to avoid a bumpy shell, known as pyramiding). If it is an open table enclosure, it's likely you will need to mist the substate several times a day and monitor the humidity levels closely with digital hygrometers. Basking spot and ambient temperature will also need to be monitored digitally.

Popular substrate brand in UK, although you can probably pick it up cheaper - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006CPUHTQ/?tag=

Avoid substrate with added calcium (little white rocks).

Hope this helps as a starting point - experienced forum members will be able to answer any specific questions you have!

 

[Phil Fishinger]

Thank you both, I’m off to read what you’ve said 😊

 

[Phil Fishinger]

Some great info there, I’m focusing on one area at a time, not to get overwhelmed and make a mistake, so, remaining with the substrate discussion would you recommend just coco coir? Just orchid bark? Or combining them? (To what ratio if combined)

 

[Tom]

Some great info there, I’m focusing on one area at a time, not to get overwhelmed and make a mistake, so, remaining with the substrate discussion would you recommend just coco coir? Just orchid bark? Or combining them? (To what ratio if combined)

I like to use coco coir for younger smaller Testudo torts. Use a thick layer, keep it damp, and hand pack it firmly to reduce the mess.

I switch them to orchid bark when they get larger, but fine grade orchid bark, aka: fir bark, is fine for babies too.

 

[PollyAda]

Some great info there, I’m focusing on one area at a time, not to get overwhelmed and make a mistake, so, remaining with the substrate discussion would you recommend just coco coir? Just orchid bark? Or combining them? (To what ratio if combined)

Both are good options, so I would say it's personal choice! You could always buy a few small bags of each to figure out what you prefer. The coarse coco coir can be dusty on its own, but once misted and mixed with the fine I think it works well, and adds texture to help my two young tortoises build leg strength.

This is what I use currently - https://www.tortoise-den.co.uk/tort...mbo-1-x-20l-bag-of-coarse-1-x-20l-bag-of-fine

 

[Phil Fishinger]

I like to use coco coir for younger smaller Testudo torts. Use a thick layer, keep it damp, and hand pack it firmly to reduce the mess.

I switch them to orchid bark when they get larger, but fine grade orchid bark, aka: fir bark, is fine for babies too.

Great! Starting to get my head around it now. For a 2 year old, that still 100% coco coir substrate?

 

[Phil Fishinger]

Both are good options, so I would say it's personal choice! You could always buy a few small bags of each to figure out what you prefer. The coarse coco coir can be dusty on its own, but once misted and mixed with the fine I think it works well, and adds texture to help my two young tortoises build leg strength.

This is what I use currently - https://www.tortoise-den.co.uk/tort...mbo-1-x-20l-bag-of-coarse-1-x-20l-bag-of-fine

Glad you’re UK based, as I’ve noticed the US has different care suggestions, mainly climate based. Went to order what you use, don’t deliver to Northern Ireland, it’s a night mate. Back to Amazon

 

[PollyAda]

Glad you’re UK based, as I’ve noticed the US has different care suggestions, mainly climate based. Went to order what you use, don’t deliver to Northern Ireland, it’s a night mate. Back to Amazon

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll find the same or similar sold elsewhere, maybe even for a better price! Testudo torts can do well in the UK with correct care. The info in the care sheets applies across the board, just lots of converting F to C (which google helps with!).

 

[Phil Fishinger]

Would you recommend both of these? Or just the one ok?

Arcadia D3 UV Basking Lamp, 100 W, E27 https://amzn.eu/d/dVhe3af

Arcadia Reptile - D3+ Reptile T5 Lamp - 12% UVB, 30% UV-A – 85cm (34"), 39 Watt - Lamp For Captive Reptiles - Fluorescent Tube Technology – Full-Spectrum+UV-B https://amzn.eu/d/7oPV35l

 

[Tom]

Great! Starting to get my head around it now. For a 2 year old, that still 100% coco coir substrate?

They can be tiny at two years old if they were kept dry ad underfed. Or they can be full sized adults at that age if fed well and housed correctly with good hydration.

I seldom get more than a year form the coir before I have to switch them.

 

[LJL1982]

Would you recommend both of these? Or just the one ok?

Arcadia D3 UV Basking Lamp, 100 W, E27 https://amzn.eu/d/dVhe3af

Arcadia Reptile - D3+ Reptile T5 Lamp - 12% UVB, 30% UV-A – 85cm (34"), 39 Watt - Lamp For Captive Reptiles - Fluorescent Tube Technology – Full-Spectrum+UV-B https://amzn.eu/d/7oPV35l

That basking light will produce a lot more heat than the strip. You'll need an additional heat source for just the tube.

In an enclosure your size I would say that basking bulb alone would be OK, you need to leave a cooler end. The bulb needs to be hung over the enclosure , as does the tube.

The light fittings in the side of the table at 4 inches above the base of the tortoise table fitted to a lot of UK tables are not appropriate, especially as tortoises climb.

I use the coco coir blocks from pets at home for £3.50 (I also use orchid bark but mine are older)

You need to consider if its tough to obtain tortoises in your area whether you have a vet in NI that specialises in exotics should the worst happen and your pet fall ill, you don't want a long travel to one.

You also need to consider that you will need to heat your house all night to maintain an ambient temp for the tort when lights are off, or have some form of night heating to keep a cooler base heating level. The UVA UVB bulb will need to be on 12 hours a day.

 

[PollyAda]

Would you recommend both of these? Or just the one ok?

Arcadia D3 UV Basking Lamp, 100 W, E27 https://amzn.eu/d/dVhe3af

Arcadia Reptile - D3+ Reptile T5 Lamp - 12% UVB, 30% UV-A – 85cm (34"), 39 Watt - Lamp For Captive Reptiles - Fluorescent Tube Technology – Full-Spectrum+UV-B https://amzn.eu/d/7oPV35l

More recent advice suggests MVB aren't the best for torts. I would go with the Arcadia UVB strip light (desert, 12%) with reflective fitting. For heat, you might want to look at https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B018QYK0Y2/?tag= as a basking bulb with suitable shade and light stand instead. You can move the light stand up and down to get the ideal temps.
You can use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) bulb with a thermostat if the ambient heat in the enclosure isn't high enough.

 

[LJL1982]

More recent advice suggests MVB aren't the best for torts. I would go with the Arcadia UVB strip light (desert, 12%) with reflective fitting. For heat, you might want to look at https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B018QYK0Y2/?tag= as a basking bulb with suitable shade and light stand instead. You can move the light stand up and down to get the ideal temps.
You can use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) bulb with a thermostat if the ambient heat in the enclosure isn't high enough.

I agree with tube use but if that is one of the standard 4 x 2 tables, and the hide is then 1ft of the length as a boxed section with lid, the tortoise living area is only 3 x 2 so it might be difficult to accommodate a tube and a heating option like a CHE.

 

[LJL1982]

I agree with tube use but if that is one of the standard 4 x 2 tables, and the hide is then 1ft of the length as a boxed section with lid, the tortoise living area is only 3 x 2 so it might be difficult to accommodate a tube and a heating option like a CHE.

I think its also particularly the coil design MVBs that they are talking about being detrimental to tort eyes.

I'm not sure that a 3ft x 2ft space is going to accommodate a UVB strip, UVA flood and potentially a CHE to top heat up if he needs option of different heat areas.

But then I also don't agree with tortoise tables on bases which are so small and that potentially can be climbed out of. Its also not enclosed so humidity cannot be maintained, which is necessary for a 2 year old, and he will have to go down the route of a 4th heat option to get a humid hide, which in a wooden enclosed maybe 1ft x 1ft space will not be safe or will be difficult.

Commercial tortoise tables are totally inappropriate in the most part in my opinion and are cruel.