Happy thanksgiving! Ones again Bolivian or cherry head?

[BabyJack]

 

[Anyfoot]

@Redfoot NERD. What is it and why?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Brazilian -- marbled plastron

 

[BabyJack]

Brazilian -- marbled plastron

Hi! Any idea why he doesnt have the prominent elbow spur, or an enlarged colored scale near the foreleg?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Hi! Any idea why he doesnt have the prominent elbow spur, or an enlarged colored scale near the foreleg?

I've seen the prominent elbow spur on those from North of Brazil .. so the elbow spur doesn't mean it is or is not [ what you are calling ] a cherryhead .

And not sure what you mean by - enlarged colored scale near the foreleg?

@BabyJack -- it's not your fault.. it's what you were led to believe .. but most of these "distinguishing-characteristics" / colors-patterns-spurs-scales, etc. don't tell if it's one kind or another!

And especially .. keep in mind - there are always exceptions and extremes. Get what you like ... and call it YOURS !!!

@Anyfoot

 

[BabyJack]

I've seen the prominent elbow spur on those from North of Brazil .. so the elbow spur doesn't mean it is or is not [ what you are calling ] a cherryhead .

And not sure what you mean by - enlarged colored scale near the foreleg?

@BabyJack -- it's not your fault.. it's what you were led to believe .. but most of these "distinguishing-characteristics" / colors-patterns-spurs-scales, etc. don't tell if it's one kind or another!

And especially .. keep in mind - there are always exceptions and extremes. Get what you like ... and call it YOURS !!!

@Anyfoot

Thanks!

 

[Anyfoot]

Do the Bolivian males gave the wasp waist band?

 

[Bryan]

How big was it when the concavity on the plastron became noticeable?

 

[Bryan]

Brazilian -- marbled plastron

I've seen marbling on the plastron of a few Bolivians and also some marbling on a few Bolivians carapaces. I've seen much more marbling than what I see on this animal on an animal from RobRoy McInnes.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Do the Bolivian males gave the wasp waist band?

@Anyfoot .. once again Craig the wasp-waist doesn't usually show until much older males!

Have no idea how old this male was in 2008 when these pics were taken by the breeder that created the female I have -





Choose for yourself what these are.. size and/or sex - from one [ not my female ] of the ( 5 ? ) known breeder's from the "original" shipment in the early '80's.
Again most of these ( 5 ) guys aren't usually very detailed with info or are no longer available!





These are two different distinct BLOOD-LINES shown above...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I've seen marbling on the plastron of a few Bolivians and also some marbling on a few Bolivians carapaces. I've seen much more marbling than what I see on this animal on an animal from RobRoy McInnes.

I'm sure there are those from Brazil that never marbled too.. all mute points and obviously different blood-lines!

 

[Anyfoot]

I've been looking for that 1st photo all morning in my emails. That male has the wasp waistband from what I can see.

Also the OP's Tortoise in question has the head morph of a Brazilian and shows no signs of the wasp waistband like a Brazilian (surely the waistband would be showing at 9"+). My northern males were showing the waistband at 8".

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I've been looking for that 1st photo all morning in my emails. That male has the wasp waistband from what I can see.

Also the OP's Tortoise in question has the head morph of a Brazilian and shows no signs of the wasp waistband like a Brazilian (surely the waistband would be showing at 9"+). My northern males were showing the waistband at 8".

@Anyfoot .. you're splitting hairs again - that "waist-band" is only the flaring of the front and rear marginals [ of an older/fully-mature male ].. NOT the "hour-glass" shape of the Northern's - I'll find pics.. hang on...

You see no flaring on the middle male above.. and he's 8" at least [ maybe you do ]

 

[Anyfoot]

@Anyfoot .. you're splitting hairs again - that "waist-band" is only the flaring of the front and rear marginals [ of an older/fully-mature male ].. NOT the "hour-glass" shape of the Northern's - I'll find pics.. hang on...

You see no flaring on the middle male above.. and he's 8" at least [ maybe you do ]

In the first photo of that big male from 2008 I wasnt sure if it was a waist band or just the photo angle. You just confirmed my doubts, it's just flaring.
So there for up to now to now to tell the difference between a Brazilian and a Bolivian of similar size(not 18" Bolivians, that's obvious) we have....

More head color on the Bolivian
No bulbous nose on the Bolivian.
No marbling on the Bolivian
And maybe no bright red Bolivians.

Is any one of these on its own a guaranteed way of identifying the Brazilian from a Bolivian?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

In the first photo of that big male from 2008 I wasnt sure if it was a waist band or just the photo angle. You just confirmed my doubts, it's just flaring.
So there for up to now to now to tell the difference between a Brazilian and a Bolivian of similar size(not 18" Bolivians, that's obvious) we have....

More head color on the Bolivian
No bulbous nose on the Bolivian.
No marbling on the Bolivian
And maybe no bright red Bolivians.

Is any one of these on its own a guaranteed way of identifying the Brazilian from a Bolivian?

The extreme North most likely will show more characteristics of the Brazilians.
The 2008 male is most likely from "CENTRAL" Bolivia - again .. only speculation.

More head color on the Bolivian - yes usually yellow / orange - not ID .. I like the yellow especially.

No bulbous nose on the Bolivian. - ? - look at pics of 2016 hatched - not ID - [ may/not be different blood-line? ]

No marbling on the Bolivian - yes IMO most ID [ what I like most.. "totally" dark plastron.. as seen on male and his off-spring ]

And maybe no bright red Bolivians. - have not seen any bright red Bolivians.

This is next to 16"/18" concrete block.. [ old enough to show "flaring" in plastron pic ] -