Grass for breakfast, Mazuri for dinner! also new setup

[lobovasco]

hey everyone, today I took more pics of the guys eating some of the grass i grew and then they had some mazuri later.

my dog is so jealous of all the time the torts get!

he had trouble reaching the mazuri so i put a rock under him

Mazuri its all mine!!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Alan, I am concerned about the pyramiding that I see on both of your guys. I can't remember if we have talked about this before so if we have I am sorry to bring it up again. I wouldn't feed them so much Mazuri...two or three kernels is enough as it has too much protein in it for Sulcata. Your substrate should be more wet than moist. They need a good varied diet of dark leafy greens and radicchio, chard, kale, romaine, green and red leaf,Grasses, Clovers, Grape, Mulberry & Fig leaves, Dandelion, Plantain (the weed) , Hibiscus (leaves and flowers), Opuntia, Thistles, Chickweed
Endive, Watercress,Collard Greens, Dandelion, Chicory, Escarole,Turnip Greens, Opuntia (smooth or despined).
They need a strong fresh UVB light or outside sun daily, lots of exercise and a wet substrate that's creating some humidity. So that's my 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding. I see a goodly amount of pyramiding on the bigger one and it's enough that I am afraid it will be hard to stop.

Pyramiding is a form of metabolic bone disease (MBD). It is characterized by a build up or stacking of keratin in the scutes. In advanced cases the shell becomes soft and flattens out.
It appears that pyramiding in tortoises is from a number of causes. Some are fairly obvious and are mentioned on just about every web site that deals with chelonians:



* too much protein
* too little calcium
* too much phosphorous (a poor calcium hosphorous ratio)
* not enough D3
* kidney and/or liver disease (which impair conversion of vitamin D to it's active from), small intestinal disease (disrupts absorption), and disease of the thyroid or parathyroid glands (produce hormones which affect calcium metabolism).

However there are some less obvious, though equally important factors involved

* lack of exercise
* hydration status
* grain based diets
* lack of fiber
* too much food
* being kept too cool

Traditionally the focus has been on protein and calcium. But the protein issue is not as simple as limiting high protein foods. A tortoise can be fed too much protein by feeding large quantities of low protein food. They can also get too much by being fed a normal amount of "good" food if they are confined in a small pen with limited exercise. In the wild tortoises typically walk miles while foraging. The more exercise they get, the more protein is needed. Excess protein in the diet causes the shell to put down heavy layers of keratin. This results in conical scutes giving rise to the appearance of pyramids. It also puts an extra burden on the kidneys and other organs.

Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding.
A far better way to provide calcium is to feed plants that are high in bioavailable calcium and leave cuttlebone with them at all times.

Vitamin D3 is essential for proper calcium utilization. Tortoises produce their own from exposure to ultraviolet B rays . The ideal source is from exposure to the sun. However many calcium supplements come with D3. Its very easy to over supplement with D3. This can result in calcification of soft tissue. There are a number of bulbs available that provide UVB so D3 supplementation isn't necessary. For more info on the output of these bulbs visit http://russiantortoise.org/uvb.htm

An often overlooked factor is grain based diets. These are the pellet food that some claim to be essential to health. They typically contain soy, wheat and or rice. These are high in omega 6 fatty acids which has a negative effect on health. They also have an acidifying effect which causes a leaching of bone. They are high in phytates which binds calcium and other minerals. They also have an unfavorable ca/ph ratio and a low ca/mg ratio which has a negative impact on calcium metabolism.

"Cereal grains have been shown to cause their rachitogenic-
and osteomalacia-producing efects in spite of the presence of adequate sun-
shine "

"Consumption of high levels of whole grain cereal products impairs bone
metabolism not only by limiting calcium intake, but by indirectly altering
vitamin D metabolism."

from http://www.sawellnesscenter.com//nutrition/Diet/Cereal article-1.pdf

Exercise is very important. It speeds up metabolism. As mentioned before it increases the need for protein. It also causes healthy deposition of calcium in the bones.

Fiber is extremely important for grassland tortoises (as is the type of fiber):

"The cells of the lower bowel receive about 50% of their nutrition from the nutrients in ingesta (and 50% from the blood stream). They specifically need beta-hydroxybutyrate (a short-chain fatty acid that derives from the fermentation of fiber in the lower bowel). One can compare fermentation rates between pellets and the fiber lengths we use, and see a significant difference. The differences means that tortoises on our foods have healthier bowels, which translates into better stools, better abilities to resist and control parasite infestations, better energy metabolism, and better control of nitrogen metabolism (and hence kidney health). Moreover, more water is held in the lower bowel when they're fed the longer length forages, which helps again with water balance and hence kidney function."

Susan Donoghue, VMD, DACVN

Hydration is also important. It includes not just having enough water for drinking but humidity as well. A recent study showed that Sulcata kept at higher humidity levels resulted in less pyramiding than those kept in more arid conditions....in spite of a high protein diet. (diet paper)

Often overlooked is the effect of cool temperatures. Tortoises require a body temperature of 80-90°F to properly digest food. If kept too cool they will still eat and remain active. However they wont be able to properly digest their food and abosrb nutrients, including calcium.


I hope this helps you understand the seriousness of pyramiding in Sulcata tortoises. It's not just a cosmetic thing, it can and often does lead to MBD and that is a painful and horrific disease.
I have copied this from several different locations and I am hoping you now can see how serious this is and that you must stop the pyramiding that I see in your small tortoises.

OK...I guess this is enough to get you thinking...

HTH

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

The pictures are very clear.

 

[Marty333]

Maggie you should put that in a sticky! That was very informative. Thank you!

 

[lobovasco]

Hey guys thanks for all the info!
i suspected it was moderate but apparently its worse than i thought ( thank god for forum)
When i got them maybe like a month ago, they were being kept in very bad conditions.
they were housed at the shop with 2 russians and 3 Leos on dry pellets, no water bowl and only a medium hide for all of them.
thats why the first kind of substrate I got was Sand, b/c the store owner recommended and told me they were dessert tortoises.
After coming on this Forum and finding out everything this guy told me was basically BS, i got eco earth and began to keep my guy moist 24/7. I got moss for their hides to keep them moist and changed their diet. they only eat mazuri once a week( is that enough?) , and then its colllard one day, mustard greens the next, timothy hay available 24/7 (which they eat when its small and wet, spring mix, shredded carrots and radish every 2 weeks. i have only fed them strawberry once. IM I OVERFEEDING? they eat once a day if not twice. i mist them alot and after reading maggies post i got their substrate wet not moist.
I also let them eat that grass which they love and cabbage and arugula. i also sprinkle calcium Without D3 about 3 times a week, no D3 bc they get alot of sunlight everyday.

i also soak them everyday morning, i bring them in when in gets dark and the sleep under a CHE bulb, they love to hide in the moist new zealand moss at night. then when the sun comes out, i bring them out.

is there anything else i can do to make him better. i think im on the right track, but if im wrong let me know.

Thanks for info maggie!

I would be so lost without this Forum LOL!

 

[Tom]

Your routine sounds great to me. The only other thing I would do is offer them a proper humid hide indoors and out. This gives them the option of hanging out in a more humid "burrow" if they want. I have found these very helpful.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Humid-Hide-Boxes-II#axzz1HI4T90MW

Recently, I just bought some black dishpans from Walmart for $2.25. I cut a door hole and turned them upside down. They are working great so far.

 

[Livingstone]

The pyramiding actually looks like its improving.

In this image the distance between the plates on the carapace is increasing without any change in depth, that means the tortoise is growing "rounder". Just my opinion, but I think you are doing a good job.