Golden and Blacks together.

[MEvans071889]

Hi im new to the tortoise world and ive been doing research for a couple months now and ive decided im going to get a tortoise. ive built a large table for at least one adult tort and im wondering if i was to go with two if it would be advisable to get both a golden and a black. also a regular greek would be fine as well but im looking to get a golden for sure and then either a black or a normal greek. Or would it just be wise to get two goldens. or perhaps only one. PLEASE let me know what you think!!
thanks!
-Mike

 

[Arizona Sulcata]

1st off welcome! Normally you should NEVER mix tortoises but this is the exception. Greeks whether golden, black, or as you say regular Greeks are all simply Greeks. They aren't different species they are just breed differently which is why you'll see a little of each in every Greek. There is a price difference though based on want and presentablitly. Normally golden Greeks cost a little more.

 

[GBtortoises]

When calling them "Golden" Greeks, or "Black" Greeks (or "normal" Greeks) that is not a reference to a specific species or subspecies. It's simply a common name. The same as a Pit Bull and a Pekingese. They may be two very different looking dogs, but they're the same species. With Greek tortoises, there are as many as 7-14 or more different subspecies depending upon which reseacher and literature that you wish to believe. However, within any given subspecies of Greek tortoises there may be multiple patterns and coloration. The appearance is determined by their environment and their individual populations. Nowadays any Greek tortoise that has very little or no dark markings on the carapace is being called a "Golden" Greek. They may come from any one of about 4-5 different subspecies from different locations primarily in the Middle East and some from Northeast Africa. "Black" Greeks can be found in almost all subspecies of Greeks. Truth is, very few are actually black, most are just very dark brown and even less common is one that is completely absent of any light color. Again, their appearance varies greatly from subspecies to subspecies and population to population. In captivity many "Black" Greek babies being offered are from old adults that simply darkened with age. Many do. So the resulting babies often aren't black at all but are "normal" colored. All of this is especially true of Ibera Greeks whose species covers a vast area of the northern Middle East, Northern Mediterranean and into some of the countries of the former Soviet Union. This species varies greatly in appearance and size because it has adapted to a multitude of different environmental micro habitats.
So a "Golden" Greek could be from any one of a half dozen different subspecies, most of which are found in the Middle East and maybe Northeast Africa. Most Greek tortoises being labeled as "Black" Greeks are Testudo ibera which are found in northern Turkey and northward. "Normal" Greeks are typically Ibera Greeks also. Middle Eastern, Northern African and Northern Mediterranean species do have some minor different captive care requirements.

 

[MEvans071889]

Thank you very much.
And judging by the website online im starting to think that these goldens are just generations of the most gold ibera greeks being breed to create the goldest babies. and same for the blacks. so im realizing they are all iberas. they have just breed the black ones with the black ones and the gold one with the gold ones. either way, after generations of this they seem to have produced distinctively different colors on these tortoises. Now is there any reason to believe that all three, i guess "versions", of the iberas wont grow to be roughly the same size? and because they are all one type there living conditions will be the same correct?
Thanks for the help i really wanna be certain about what im doing before i pony up 400 dollars for a pair of tortoises i may find out cant live together.
Thanks again
-Mike

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Mike:

Welcome to the Tortoise forum!

May we know appx. where in the world you are?

 

[MEvans071889]

Absolutely im in Massachusetts. and ive been very interested in torts for a good while now and ive wanted one for about a year. and in the last couple months ive gone ahead with the proper necessities to recreate these greek tortoise environment. My issues are that there are so many opinions and different sides to everything about tortoises, Greeks specifically. I'm glad to have found a place where a common interest is had and i can read all of these threads and ask questions along my journey.
Thanks
-Mike

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, there is no "one way" to keep tortoises. And there really is no right or wrong way. You try to figure out what the tortoise needs and then you provide it. What you do for a tortoise in Mass. is probably pretty different from what I would have to do to provide the same thing for my tortoise here in California. GBTortoises is in New York, and he really knows his stuff about the Mediterranean tortoises. So you can feel pretty good about following his advice.

 

[GBtortoises]

Thank you very much.
And judging by the website online im starting to think that these goldens are just generations of the most gold ibera greeks being breed to create the goldest babies. and same for the blacks. so im realizing they are all iberas. they have just breed the black ones with the black ones and the gold one with the gold ones. either way, after generations of this they seem to have produced distinctively different colors on these tortoises. Now is there any reason to believe that all three, i guess "versions", of the iberas wont grow to be roughly the same size? and because they are all one type there living conditions will be the same correct?
Thanks for the help i really wanna be certain about what im doing before i pony up 400 dollars for a pair of tortoises i may find out cant live together.
Thanks again
-Mike

No actually most "Golden" Greeks aren't Ibera. Most are from the true Middle East and Northeastern Africa. Ibera are found in the northern fringes of the the Middle East and into the Northern Mediterranean. Most of the subspecies that the "Golden" Greeks originate from are from overal warmer, drier regions than that of most Ibera. As adults the majority of the Middle Eastern subspecies are also smaller (6-7") by comparison to Ibera which can range in adult size from 6.5" up to 10". Again, depending very much on geographical population.
Most of the "Golden" Greeks currently available as adults are animals newly imported from the Jordan, Syria and neighboring countries. Those that are captive born are probably offspring of tortoises from the same region. While they may have originally been from different populations of different subspecies they have all been bred together now in captivity to produce the desired color. So subspecies purity with them is no longer a factor. Fortunately, their parents probably came from very similar environments so keeping them can be done just as any Middle Eastern Greek.
And while "Black" or very dark Greeks may be bred with one another in captivity that in no way guarantees that the offspring are going to be black or even dark. I have yet to see one that was born black. The reason for that is because their parents also did not start out black or dark. Some Ibera from certain populations will turn darker as they age. Some will even turn completely black or very dark gray. Some turn darker quicker than others, some not at all. This same characteristic is true with Marginated tortoises from certain populations. I once had a pair of Marginateds (now residing in Arizona) that were completely black. But they started out looking like typical Marginateds.
Basically, Ibera are more cold and moisture tolerant than any of the Middle Eastern Greeks, including "Goldens". I would not recommend to anyone here in the Northeast to keep Middle Eastern or North African Gracea species outdoors for more than July, August and possibly into early September. Even that depends upon what type of summer we're having. If it's dry they fine outdoors 24/7 during those months. If we get a lot of rain or temperatures are cool overall I would not put Middle Easterns or North Africans outdoors here on anything but the absolute warmest, driest days.
Ibera on the other hand, are very cold and more moisture tolerant. They can generally go out and stay out day & night from late April through early October. With the right accomodations and protection they can also be brumated (hibernated) outdoors here in the Northeast. So there is quite a difference between keeping the Middle Easterns/North Africans compared to the Northern Mediterraneans here in the Northeast. In other areas, primarily the south and southwest Greeks from anywhere can be kept much more easily outdoors.

 

[Tccarolina]

Thank you very much.
And judging by the website online im starting to think that these goldens are just generations of the most gold ibera greeks being breed to create the goldest babies. and same for the blacks. so im realizing they are all iberas. they have just breed the black ones with the black ones and the gold one with the gold ones. either way, after generations of this they seem to have produced distinctively different colors on these tortoises. Now is there any reason to believe that all three, i guess "versions", of the iberas wont grow to be roughly the same size? and because they are all one type there living conditions will be the same correct?
Thanks for the help i really wanna be certain about what im doing before i pony up 400 dollars for a pair of tortoises i may find out cant live together.
Thanks again
-Mike

No actually most "Golden" Greeks aren't Ibera. Most are from the true Middle East and Northeastern Africa. Ibera are found in the northern fringes of the the Middle East and into the Northern Mediterranean. Most of the subspecies that the "Golden" Greeks originate from are from overal warmer, drier regions than that of most Ibera. As adults the majority of the Middle Eastern subspecies are also smaller (6-7") by comparison to Ibera which can range in adult size from 6.5" up to 10". Again, depending very much on geographical population.
Most of the "Golden" Greeks currently available as adults are animals newly imported from the Jordan, Syria and neighboring countries. Those that are captive born are probably offspring of tortoises from the same region. While they may have originally been from different populations of different subspecies they have all been bred together now in captivity to produce the desired color. So subspecies purity with them is no longer a factor. Fortunately, their parents probably came from very similar environments so keeping them can be done just as any Middle Eastern Greek.
And while "Black" or very dark Greeks may be bred with one another in captivity that in no way guarantees that the offspring are going to be black or even dark. I have yet to see one that was born black. The reason for that is because their parents also did not start out black or dark. Some Ibera from certain populations will turn darker as they age. Some will even turn completely black or very dark gray. Some turn darker quicker than others, some not at all. This same characteristic is true with Marginated tortoises from certain populations. I once had a pair of Marginateds (now residing in Arizona) that were completely black. But they started out looking like typical Marginateds.
Basically, Ibera are more cold and moisture tolerant than any of the Middle Eastern Greeks, including "Goldens". I would not recommend to anyone here in the Northeast to keep Middle Eastern or North African Gracea species outdoors for more than July, August and possibly into early September. Even that depends upon what type of summer we're having. If it's dry they fine outdoors 24/7 during those months. If we get a lot of rain or temperatures are cool overall I would not put Middle Easterns or North Africans outdoors here on anything but the absolute warmest, driest days.
Ibera on the other hand, are very cold and more moisture tolerant. They can generally go out and stay out day & night from late April through early October. With the right accomodations and protection they can also be brumated (hibernated) outdoors here in the Northeast. So there is quite a difference between keeping the Middle Easterns/North Africans compared to the Northern Mediterraneans here in the Northeast. In other areas, primarily the south and southwest Greeks from anywhere can be kept much more easily outdoors.

It's always great to read your posts and replies, gbtortoises! Very informative and well-worded.

 

[MEvans071889]

Thank you very much.
And judging by the website online im starting to think that these goldens are just generations of the most gold ibera greeks being breed to create the goldest babies. and same for the blacks. so im realizing they are all iberas. they have just breed the black ones with the black ones and the gold one with the gold ones. either way, after generations of this they seem to have produced distinctively different colors on these tortoises. Now is there any reason to believe that all three, i guess "versions", of the iberas wont grow to be roughly the same size? and because they are all one type there living conditions will be the same correct?
Thanks for the help i really wanna be certain about what im doing before i pony up 400 dollars for a pair of tortoises i may find out cant live together.
Thanks again
-Mike

No actually most "Golden" Greeks aren't Ibera. Most are from the true Middle East and Northeastern Africa. Ibera are found in the northern fringes of the the Middle East and into the Northern Mediterranean. Most of the subspecies that the "Golden" Greeks originate from are from overal warmer, drier regions than that of most Ibera. As adults the majority of the Middle Eastern subspecies are also smaller (6-7") by comparison to Ibera which can range in adult size from 6.5" up to 10". Again, depending very much on geographical population.
Most of the "Golden" Greeks currently available as adults are animals newly imported from the Jordan, Syria and neighboring countries. Those that are captive born are probably offspring of tortoises from the same region. While they may have originally been from different populations of different subspecies they have all been bred together now in captivity to produce the desired color. So subspecies purity with them is no longer a factor. Fortunately, their parents probably came from very similar environments so keeping them can be done just as any Middle Eastern Greek.
And while "Black" or very dark Greeks may be bred with one another in captivity that in no way guarantees that the offspring are going to be black or even dark. I have yet to see one that was born black. The reason for that is because their parents also did not start out black or dark. Some Ibera from certain populations will turn darker as they age. Some will even turn completely black or very dark gray. Some turn darker quicker than others, some not at all. This same characteristic is true with Marginated tortoises from certain populations. I once had a pair of Marginateds (now residing in Arizona) that were completely black. But they started out looking like typical Marginateds.
Basically, Ibera are more cold and moisture tolerant than any of the Middle Eastern Greeks, including "Goldens". I would not recommend to anyone here in the Northeast to keep Middle Eastern or North African Gracea species outdoors for more than July, August and possibly into early September. Even that depends upon what type of summer we're having. If it's dry they fine outdoors 24/7 during those months. If we get a lot of rain or temperatures are cool overall I would not put Middle Easterns or North Africans outdoors here on anything but the absolute warmest, driest days.
Ibera on the other hand, are very cold and more moisture tolerant. They can generally go out and stay out day & night from late April through early October. With the right accomodations and protection they can also be brumated (hibernated) outdoors here in the Northeast. So there is quite a difference between keeping the Middle Easterns/North Africans compared to the Northern Mediterraneans here in the Northeast. In other areas, primarily the south and southwest Greeks from anywhere can be kept much more easily outdoors.


So you say that "black greeks" are more commonly dark iberas? or are just dark versions or many subspecies? and would a breeder be able to tell me what sub species it was? And if i did find out that the torts being sold as "black greeks" were a subspecies from the middle east or northeastern africa, like that of the golden greeks, would it be ok to contain these at the same time? I really need to find out exactly what subspecies these golds and blacks are so i no what sort of substrate temp and humidity is best. Thank you so much GB i really appreciate all the advice. same to everyone else. THANKS!!

-Mike

 

[MEvans071889]

When calling them "Golden" Greeks, or "Black" Greeks (or "normal" Greeks) that is not a reference to a specific species or subspecies. It's simply a common name. The same as a Pit Bull and a Pekingese. They may be two very different looking dogs, but they're the same species. With Greek tortoises, there are as many as 7-14 or more different subspecies depending upon which reseacher and literature that you wish to believe. However, within any given subspecies of Greek tortoises there may be multiple patterns and coloration. The appearance is determined by their environment and their individual populations. Nowadays any Greek tortoise that has very little or no dark markings on the carapace is being called a "Golden" Greek. They may come from any one of about 4-5 different subspecies from different locations primarily in the Middle East and some from Northeast Africa. "Black" Greeks can be found in almost all subspecies of Greeks. Truth is, very few are actually black, most are just very dark brown and even less common is one that is completely absent of any light color. Again, their appearance varies greatly from subspecies to subspecies and population to population. In captivity many "Black" Greek babies being offered are from old adults that simply darkened with age. Many do. So the resulting babies often aren't black at all but are "normal" colored. All of this is especially true of Ibera Greeks whose species covers a vast area of the northern Middle East, Northern Mediterranean and into some of the countries of the former Soviet Union. This species varies greatly in appearance and size because it has adapted to a multitude of different environmental micro habitats.
So a "Golden" Greek could be from any one of a half dozen different subspecies, most of which are found in the Middle East and maybe Northeast Africa. Most Greek tortoises being labeled as "Black" Greeks are Testudo ibera which are found in northern Turkey and northward. "Normal" Greeks are typically Ibera Greeks also. Middle Eastern, Northern African and Northern Mediterranean species do have some minor different captive care requirements.

and what were some of the differences in the captive care of middle eastern and northern Mediterranean? for babies too?

 

[GBtortoises]

The majority of, but not all, Black Greek tortoises come are Ibera. But there are also black and very dark example from Middle Eastern and North African subspecies too. Again, few are black or dark when born. They simply darken with age. So their offspring are going to resemble the parents at their younger state, not what the parents currently look like. That darkening process with age may not take place for 30-50 years either. There is no way of knowing.
As far as the breeder telling you the subspecies that might be difficult if their adults are Middle Eastern. There is a lot of confusion with the subspecies of Greeks from that region. As well as some with Greeks from Africa too. They (the breeder) may only be going by what they were told too when they purchased their adults.
While I am very much a believer in keeping different species and subspecies seperate to maintain their purity in captivity, in a situation like the Greeks, with the exception of Ibera, it is not always possible. This due to the fact that over the past dozen years many Greeks have been imported from the Middle East and were at first sold as Ibera and more lately simply as "Greeks". Many of the Middle Eastern (and African) subspecies have already been mixed in captivity in many cases produced offspring. So while in the wild they are still different subspecies in different regions that may not be the case of many captive born offspring now.
What is first more important is knowing which of the three major regions that a newly acquired Greek tortoise is from in order to provide it with optimum evironmental conditions in captivity. Finding out the subspecies is secondary to that.

Thank you very much.
And judging by the website online im starting to think that these goldens are just generations of the most gold ibera greeks being breed to create the goldest babies. and same for the blacks. so im realizing they are all iberas. they have just breed the black ones with the black ones and the gold one with the gold ones. either way, after generations of this they seem to have produced distinctively different colors on these tortoises. Now is there any reason to believe that all three, i guess "versions", of the iberas wont grow to be roughly the same size? and because they are all one type there living conditions will be the same correct?
Thanks for the help i really wanna be certain about what im doing before i pony up 400 dollars for a pair of tortoises i may find out cant live together.
Thanks again
-Mike

No actually most "Golden" Greeks aren't Ibera. Most are from the true Middle East and Northeastern Africa. Ibera are found in the northern fringes of the the Middle East and into the Northern Mediterranean. Most of the subspecies that the "Golden" Greeks originate from are from overal warmer, drier regions than that of most Ibera. As adults the majority of the Middle Eastern subspecies are also smaller (6-7") by comparison to Ibera which can range in adult size from 6.5" up to 10". Again, depending very much on geographical population.
Most of the "Golden" Greeks currently available as adults are animals newly imported from the Jordan, Syria and neighboring countries. Those that are captive born are probably offspring of tortoises from the same region. While they may have originally been from different populations of different subspecies they have all been bred together now in captivity to produce the desired color. So subspecies purity with them is no longer a factor. Fortunately, their parents probably came from very similar environments so keeping them can be done just as any Middle Eastern Greek.
And while "Black" or very dark Greeks may be bred with one another in captivity that in no way guarantees that the offspring are going to be black or even dark. I have yet to see one that was born black. The reason for that is because their parents also did not start out black or dark. Some Ibera from certain populations will turn darker as they age. Some will even turn completely black or very dark gray. Some turn darker quicker than others, some not at all. This same characteristic is true with Marginated tortoises from certain populations. I once had a pair of Marginateds (now residing in Arizona) that were completely black. But they started out looking like typical Marginateds.
Basically, Ibera are more cold and moisture tolerant than any of the Middle Eastern Greeks, including "Goldens". I would not recommend to anyone here in the Northeast to keep Middle Eastern or North African Gracea species outdoors for more than July, August and possibly into early September. Even that depends upon what type of summer we're having. If it's dry they fine outdoors 24/7 during those months. If we get a lot of rain or temperatures are cool overall I would not put Middle Easterns or North Africans outdoors here on anything but the absolute warmest, driest days.
Ibera on the other hand, are very cold and more moisture tolerant. They can generally go out and stay out day & night from late April through early October. With the right accomodations and protection they can also be brumated (hibernated) outdoors here in the Northeast. So there is quite a difference between keeping the Middle Easterns/North Africans compared to the Northern Mediterraneans here in the Northeast. In other areas, primarily the south and southwest Greeks from anywhere can be kept much more easily outdoors.


So you say that "black greeks" are more commonly dark iberas? or are just dark versions or many subspecies? and would a breeder be able to tell me what sub species it was? And if i did find out that the torts being sold as "black greeks" were a subspecies from the middle east or northeastern africa, like that of the golden greeks, would it be ok to contain these at the same time? I really need to find out exactly what subspecies these golds and blacks are so i no what sort of substrate temp and humidity is best. Thank you so much GB i really appreciate all the advice. same to everyone else. THANKS!!

-Mike