Georgie Update

[GeorgiesGrampa]

Well, he/she seemed to be a bit happier in the soak this morning. I pureed some carrots and a bit of apple for him to soak in. He drank quite a few times and spun around to put his head in the deep end and submerge it. You can tell he's trying to clear his eyes...scrubbing his head against his front legs. The white slime looks to be getting thinner, but his eyes are still well covered. Is there something I can do to help him get the stuff off his eyes? Warm wet QTip??

Also we bought some parsley for him. Is that OK? We're off to the store now to replace his habitat completely and get the various vitamins, etc.

Thanks again for all the help and warm wishes!

Cheers!
GGP

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Get Spring Mix not parsley. He'll eat it better. Please keep soaking him everyday. If you have some mineral oil put some on a Q-tip and rub his eyes softly. I'd do that several times a day. Hold him and talk to him and make him stay awake and show him that he's not alone. I know that sounds hokey (is that a word?) but if you do those things it keeps him from sleeping so much and keeps him awake and trying to see and be active. I have saved several very sick animals that way. I am holding one right now and making her stay awake...It works!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi John:

There's a product made especially for animal eyes:

Terramycin opthalmic ointment.

Its manufactured by Pfizer and you can either buy it from a feed store (horse and cattle) or from your vet. You can buy it online, but that would take too long.

Yes...you can gently rub the eyelid with a Q-tip, but put some mineral oil or Vaseline on the Q-tip so it doesn't harm the tender eyelid. Then wipe most of it off afterward.

While you are out buying stuff, be sure to buy either the bird vitamins (Vitasol by 8in1) or Gerber strained carrots, sweet potatoes, squash. When a baby isn't eating, they go downhill very fast. And by soaking in water that has been dressed up with the above, they will absorb nutrients through areas of thin skin on their body. Absorbing these nutrients also helps the swollen, stuck-shut eyes.

Yvonne

 

[GeorgiesGrampa]

Thanks. We'll try playing with him to keep him alert. So long as my little girl washes her hands well it's OK for her to hold him, right? We've been a bit over cautious about the salmonella issue, I think...we watch him a lot but don't touch (unless soaking, etc).

How long would you say he can be away from his UV lamp, provided he's warm?

 

[Kristina]

Yes, as long as she washes her hands it should be fine for her to hold him. Here are some tips on Salmonella prevention by Dr. Douglass Mader http://www.tortoise.org/general/salmon1.html

Kristina

 

[Maggie Cummings]

This is my own personal opinion, I am NOT a Dr. and I play with my tortoises. I don't put them or my hands in my mouth so the risk of salmonella is minimal...it makes no sense to me to spend as much time and energy and money as we do and not enjoy them to the fullest. Right now I have 21 turtles and tortoises; that's down from the 50 I had before I moved to Oregon...and because I don't put any turtle or tortoise in my mouth, nor my hands after I've played with them I don't worry about getting sick. Why should we have them if not to enjoy to the max??? Just my personal opinion...

 

[Yvonne G]

Don't worry about Georgie being away from his UVB lamp. Sometimes its a relief for the tortoise to not have to be under that harsh light. I can only speak from my own experience: All of my winter houses are outside, and the tortoises go outdoors even in the coldest weather (on their own). I DON'T use UVB lighting, only a regular incandescent bulb to let them know its daytime and for the warmth it gives off. So, IN MY OPINION, five or six hours a week of UVB is plenty. I have not lost any babies to MBD...in fact, I have not lost any babies period...and I have raised and kept Manouria, Leopards and Yellowfoots. But when your baby is in the house 24/7 it obviously needs the UVB bulb...but all day, every day? I don't think so.

Yvonne

 

[tortoisenerd]

In my opinion if the tort is away from the habitat for a bit the concern would be more for keeping it warm than worrying about it being away from UVB for a bit. Especially when they are recovering they need it a little warmer.

 

[dcoolguy68]

Don't worry about Georgie being away from his UVB lamp. Sometimes its a relief for the tortoise to not have to be under that harsh light. I can only speak from my own experience: All of my winter houses are outside, and the tortoises go outdoors even in the coldest weather (on their own). I DON'T use UVB lighting, only a regular incandescent bulb to let them know its daytime and for the warmth it gives off. So, IN MY OPINION, five or six hours a week of UVB is plenty. I have not lost any babies to MBD...in fact, I have not lost any babies period...and I have raised and kept Manouria, Leopards and Yellowfoots. But when your baby is in the house 24/7 it obviously needs the UVB bulb...but all day, every day? I don't think so.

Yvonne

My vet said that actually not having the UVB light on everyday was the reason my tortoise got sick, she said the UVB also helps him eat and digest his food properly and to have the UVB light on everyday for 12-14 hours a day and to put him in the sun as much as possible since it is a lot better than the artificial UVB put out by the lights.

 

[GeorgiesGrampa]

Georgie now has a completely revamped habitat, with a bed of grass and the beast coconut husk stuff. We soaked him in the Vitasol and carrot bath for about 30 min, and I got some of the gook off his eyes with a qtip and some aloe vera. The humidity is up radically in the enclosure...mostly due to the bedding still evaporating moisture.

I discovered after getting thermometers that this hot spot was well over 90 and likely close to 100 (the thermometer stops at 90...need to get a better one). I've realigned the lighting. To get the temps right the UV lamp is pointed almost completely away from the enclosure. It looks like late afternoon in there vs. the high noon vibe that it's been for the last month. I made him a hide in the substrate and put him in it...he seemed to like it.

He's very weak. He's not moving around the cage at all, though he moves his front legs to spin himself from time to time, and he stretches his neck every so often too. He won't eat anything...grass, spring mix, strawberry...nothing.

I called our local vet. She's not a herp vet but said she'd take a look. She has some knowledge, and she's the best vet emergency center in the county. The thing is, I don't know what she would even do for him? Any suggestions? I can take Georgie in anytime tonight...but I need to have some idea of what we might do for him, medically speaking.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I don't think there's much the Vet can do that you haven't already done. Maybe tube feeding him. But I think you should start to prepare your granddaughter that he may not make it. Do you mind telling me where you live? I might find a reptile Vet close to you. But I almost think he is beyond saving. Stretching his neck out almost sounds like 'gaping'. That's what they do when they can't breathe.

dcoolguy68...I couldn't disagree more. Most tortoises spend a good part of their day 20 feet down in a long burrow away from the UVB rays of the sun. Your tortoise died because it was compromised already and you were too inexperienced to save it. I raise very healthy animals and I only keep my UVB lights on for 4 or 5 hours a day.

It is very hard to raise hatchlings

 

[dcoolguy68]

when that happened to my tortoise, my vet prescribed him some daily calcium and vitamin supplements that i had to inject under his arm pit once a day around the same time, she also force fed him and injected some vitamins into him that same day and she also dewormed him because every tortoise has parasites and she said that when he's that weak the parasites can take over his body and kill the host. He didn't eat so I had to take him again and that time she prescribed him some baytril(another shot I had to give him daily) which took care of any infection he had. But please take him to the vet tonight(my bill came out to $230 for everything).
What you should do is buy some baby strained baby food(carrot, squash) and mix 1 spoonful in with his water and soak him for 30min a day. When you soak him make the water is not too high up where he can drown since he might be too weak to keep his head up. I did that with my Sulcata and he started eating again today! Even with the medication it will take a while for him to get better but if your vet does the same thing mine did, then he should be fine. Best of luck to you and your tortoise.

---

I don't think there's much the Vet can do that you haven't already done. Maybe tube feeding him. But I think you should start to prepare your granddaughter that he may not make it. Do you mind telling me where you live? I might find a reptile Vet close to you. But I almost think he is beyond saving. Stretching his neck out almost sounds like 'gaping'. That's what they do when they can't breathe.

dcoolguy68...I couldn't disagree more. Most tortoises spend a good part of their day 20 feet down in a long burrow away from the UVB rays of the sun. Your tortoise died because it was compromised already and you were too inexperienced to save it. I raise very healthy animals and I only keep my UVB lights on for 4 or 5 hours a day.

It is very hard to raise hatchlings

The other one that survived was going through the same thing but his body does seem to be getting harder and he just started eating today! I was so excited... It's not that I was inexperienced he died the day before Thanksgiving and no vets were available till the week after so it was just a matter of bad timing. And the more light the better because they really need it as a baby, but just because Sulcatas spend a good part of their day in a long burrow does not mean that they're in there the entire time the sun is out. As an experienced owner you should know that real sunlight is a lot better than artificial UVB so thats why it's recommended you keep it on for 12-14 hours a day.

 

[Kristina]

You are not going to get anywhere arguing with Maggie on this one, because she is right. And as for natural sunlight being better, do you then propose that I take my Sulcatas out into -2 degree weather so that they can get some? I think not. You are right, it is better, but it is absolutely impractical to think that all of us can give pure natural sunlight all the time.

MOST tortoise species are crepuscular. They are active at dawn and dusk, when the suns UV rays are not as intense. During the heat of the day and when the UV is most intense, they are in their burrows or tucked away beneath low vegetation. This is even more true for hatchlings, because they are more vulnerable to dehydration and predators, and spend much more time hiding.

No, they are not in there the entire time the sun is out, and no one has suggested using no UV lighting at all. But 4-5 hours a day is plenty of exposure. Otherwise you risk problems such as conjuctivitis. Ever bent over under your UV light? I have, and it HURTS my eyes. What would it do to a tort that is under it all day long?

Kristina

 

[GeorgiesGrampa]

Do you mind telling me where you live? I might find a reptile Vet close to you.

We live in Santa Clarita, CA just north of Los Angeles city
Thanks for the help

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Anything I found on my list is a ways to drive. But here's 3...I'm sorry I was not more help...
Susan Hoegeman, DVM
Cat & Bird Clinic
101 West Mission Street
Santa Barbara, CA 93101
Tel: (805) 569-2287
Comments:

Eric Westheimer, DVM
Valley Animal Hospital
102 South Fairview Avenue
Goleta, CA 93117
Tel: (805) 964-7755
Fax: (805) 683-1947

Dr. Sue Lynch
Waterhouse Animal Hospital
1115 E. Champlain Dr.
Fresno, CA 93720
Tel: (559) 434-4000

 

[galvinkaos]

Maggie, I don't know how you search or if it is a print list but San Fernando Valley or Antelope valley or even LA would not be as long a drive for them.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

when that happened to my tortoise, my vet prescribed him some daily calcium and vitamin supplements that i had to inject under his arm pit once a day around the same time, she also force fed him and injected some vitamins into him that same day and she also dewormed him because every tortoise has parasites and she said that when he's that weak the parasites can take over his body and kill the host. He didn't eat so I had to take him again and that time she prescribed him some baytril(another shot I had to give him daily) which took care of any infection he had. But please take him to the vet tonight(my bill came out to $230 for everything).
What you should do is buy some baby strained baby food(carrot, squash) and mix 1 spoonful in with his water and soak him for 30min a day. When you soak him make the water is not too high up where he can drown since he might be too weak to keep his head up. I did that with my Sulcata and he started eating again today! Even with the medication it will take a while for him to get better but if your vet does the same thing mine did, then he should be fine. Best of luck to you and your tortoise.

---

I don't think there's much the Vet can do that you haven't already done. Maybe tube feeding him. But I think you should start to prepare your granddaughter that he may not make it. Do you mind telling me where you live? I might find a reptile Vet close to you. But I almost think he is beyond saving. Stretching his neck out almost sounds like 'gaping'. That's what they do when they can't breathe.

dcoolguy68...I couldn't disagree more. Most tortoises spend a good part of their day 20 feet down in a long burrow away from the UVB rays of the sun. Your tortoise died because it was compromised already and you were too inexperienced to save it. I raise very healthy animals and I only keep my UVB lights on for 4 or 5 hours a day.

It is very hard to raise hatchlings

The other one that survived was going through the same thing but his body does seem to be getting harder and he just started eating today! I was so excited... It's not that I was inexperienced he died the day before Thanksgiving and no vets were available till the week after so it was just a matter of bad timing. And the more light the better because they really need it as a baby, but just because Sulcatas spend a good part of their day in a long burrow does not mean that they're in there the entire time the sun is out. As an experienced owner you should know that real sunlight is a lot better than artificial UVB so thats why it's recommended you keep it on for 12-14 hours a day.

---

dcoolguy68...When Yvonne and I were trying to help you with your first sick tortoise we told you to use the WHOLE jar of baby food not just a spoonful. What is the point of one spoonful?
I will say I do find it a bit offensive that someone who has one dead baby and another sick baby is arguing with me who has no sick babies and who raises active and healthy animals. You are saying your baby died the day before Thanksgiving and no Vets were available, but I know that your baby was sick for a long time before he died, he didn't just get sick and die in a day. I absolutely agree that natural sunlight is better than UVB light, and my animals get all the sun they can soak up when the sun is out, and 4 to 5 hours of UVB daily when the sun is not out.
The point of this thread is to help Gramps with his sick hatchling, and I believe I have been as helpful as I can...it is pointless for me to carry this discussion any farther.

---

Maggie, I don't know how you search or if it is a print list but San Fernando Valley or Antelope valley or even LA would not be as long a drive for them.

---

Maggie, I don't know how you search or if it is a print list but San Fernando Valley or Antelope valley or even LA would not be as long a drive for them.

I sat here with my atlas and list of Vets and couldn't come up with anybody closer...I'm starting to think I need an updated list....thanks for the help...

 

[galvinkaos]

No problem.

Dawna

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Look at what I found...

Adobe Veterinary Hospital
17787 Sierra Highway
Canyon Country, CA 91351
(661) 251-3710
Dr. Robert A. Mushkot, D.V.M


Their hours are
M, T, Th, F- 9 am to 12 and 2 pm-6 pm
Wed- 9 am to 12 noon
Sat- 10 am to 2 pm

 

[Yvonne G]

We soaked him in the Vitasol and carrot bath for about 30 min, and I got some of the gook off his eyes with a qtip and some aloe vera.

You don't have to use both vitamins AND baby food. Use one or the other.

A baby that can't see, won't eat. So your first priority is to get the eyes open. Don't let the vet give your baby a Vit. a (or a,d,e) shot. They can get enough Vit. a from the soaking. I THINK that dosing a tortoise is sometimes a crap-shoot and many times the tortoise ends up with too much which causes his skin to slough off.

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier in the evening. But if I'm not too late, ask your vet if she'll sell you a tube of Terramycin Opthalmic ointment for the baby's eyes.

Here's a link to some of the reptile vets in California. Scroll down and find one near you. http://www.herpvetconnection.com/calif.shtml

Yvonne