Few Questions About New Leapords!

[davy89]

Just have a quick few questions if some of the more experienced owners wouldn't mind answering them for me!

So both of my torts are roughly the same size, weight, etc. Just wanted to know if anybody could give me an idea of what age they are judging by the following measurements:

Weight: 115 Grams / 120 Grams
Length: 8cm / 7.5cm
Circumference: 18cm / 18cm

I was told roughly about 1 1/2 years, any other guesstimates would be appreciate

Also I can't get either of them to eat any sort of dry grasses like orchard grass or couch grass, they only seem to like Cabbage, Dandelion leaves, Clover and Spring mix, and once or twice a week I give them Carrot and Broccoli. Should I be worried that they aren't getting enough fiber? Any other diet tips?

Another thing that I was worried about is temperatures at night. In the vivarium they drop to about 20c,(70f?) Is this o.k. or should I invest in an infrared heat lamp of some sort? And would anybody recommend using a heat mat (pig blanket)? I have one but I've been told it isn't beneficial as it heats the torts under shell which is softer and can cos damage to their insides.

Thanks again everybody for all the help, I'll get pics up ASAP

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Davy:

This one was written with sulcata babies in mind, but it works for leopards too:

http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies

Your diet has a few things in it that I don't feed. Don't worry about feeding them hay until they get bigger. For now, you can feed them dark, leafy greens from the store, with weeds tossed in. Mulberry leaves and grape leaves are good too. No carrots, cabbage or broccoli. The Spring Mix is fine.

 

[Tom]

I'll take a stab at it.
1. Growth rates are highly variable for a lot of reasons. Your torts could be anywhere from 6 months to 6 years at that size. 1.5 years sounds about right.
2. Most leos won't eat dry grasses or hay. Try letting them graze naturally on some grass in a yard. You can also take grass hay, like Bermuda hay, and spray it with water to rehydrate it. Sometimes they like it better that way. One of the things I'll sometimes do to get them eating it is take a clump of dry grass hay in one hand and chop it with scissors with the other hand. Sprinkle the finely chopped pieces on top of your normal greens and spray with a little water to rehydrate it. Then mix it all up. They won't be able to eat around it. Just use a little at first and then gradually more.
3. Go easy on the cabbage, carrots and broccoli. A little once in a while won't kill them, but none of these are really good leo staples. Try some grape leaves, mulberry leaves, opuntia cactus, hibiscus and rose leaves and flowers, other weeds like mallow, filaree, plantain, sow thistle, hawks beard, wild mustard, wild onion, etc... We have a weed ID section of the forum. Look around in there to see if you recognize any that also grow in your area. If not, take a pic of YOUR weeds and post it for ID.
4. Leopards need lots of humidity and wetness to grow smooth. (Most of them don't, sadly) 70 is too cool for a humid environment with young leos. I like to keep mine 80 round the clock and give them a basking spot of 100-110 for 12-14 hours a day. Here's a care sheet I did for sulcata hatchlings, but I'm doing the exact same thing with my Leopards. http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies I like CHEs for night heat, but red, blue or black bulbs work well too.
5. Heat mats are more for outdoor enclosures on larger/older torts. I wouldn't use them on baby or young ones indoors.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Whoops. Yvonne beat me to it. I just type too slow. Sorry Yvonne.

 

[davy89]

I'll take a stab at it.
1. Growth rates are highly variable for a lot of reasons. Your torts could be anywhere from 6 months to 6 years at that size. 1.5 years sounds about right.
2. Most leos won't eat dry grasses or hay. Try letting them graze naturally on some grass in a yard. You can also take grass hay, like Bermuda hay, and spray it with water to rehydrate it. Sometimes they like it better that way. One of the things I'll sometimes do to get them eating it is take a clump of dry grass hay in one hand and chop it with scissors with the other hand. Sprinkle the finely chopped pieces on top of your normal greens and spray with a little water to rehydrate it. Then mix it all up. They won't be able to eat around it. Just use a little at first and then gradually more.
3. Go easy on the cabbage, carrots and broccoli. A little once in a while won't kill them, but none of these are really good leo staples. Try some grape leaves, mulberry leaves, opuntia cactus, hibiscus and rose leaves and flowers, other weeds like mallow, filaree, plantain, sow thistle, hawks beard, wild mustard, wild onion, etc... We have a weed ID section of the forum. Look around in there to see if you recognize any that also grow in your area. If not, take a pic of YOUR weeds and post it for ID.
4. Leopards need lots of humidity and wetness to grow smooth. (Most of them don't, sadly) 70 is too cool for a humid environment with young leos. I like to keep mine 80 round the clock and give them a basking spot of 100-110 for 12-14 hours a day. Here's a care sheet I did for sulcata hatchlings, but I'm doing the exact same thing with my Leopards. http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies I like CHEs for night heat, but red, blue or black bulbs work well too.
5. Heat mats are more for outdoor enclosures on larger/older torts. I wouldn't use them on baby or young ones indoors.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Whoops. Yvonne beat me to it. I just type too slow. Sorry Yvonne.

Thanks guys, Im gonna have to try fine tune their diet and see if I can get them into eating the right stuff on a regular basis. Cut out the carrots, cabbage and broccoli, got it.

So Tom you think I should be trying to keep the temperature around 80 even during the night? Should the ambient air temperature not be higher than that during the day then?

I've heard that Leopards shouldn't be exposed to humidity and wetness as it can lead to respiratory problems, is that not true? And if it's important to keep them humid, how exactly do you control the levels of humidity? I'm bathing them every other day, and they drink from their water dish every day also. Do you think I'm doing enough to keep them wet?

I'd appreciate you're advice on the heating and humidity as it's the biggest challenge I'm facing at this point, it's tedious but I'm hoping to get there eventually.

Thanks again Tom

 

[Tom]

Yes on the warm night temps. I like to do it this way for little ones. As they get older and bigger, I back off a bit.

I use 80 as a minimum. If it gets a little hotter during the day that's fine. My reptile room sometimes hits the low 90's and they all still sit under their basking lights.

What you've heard about leopards and humidity IS the conventional wisdom. Its also the reason that every leopard tortoise you've ever seen is pyramided horribly. The respiratory problems come from being damp and COLD at the same time. I have found that if you keep them 80 or above, it doesn't matter how wet you keep them. Great strides have been made in the understanding of pyramiding and its prevention in the last few years by several notable tortoise keepers. I've been applying all that I've learned from these other people and raising some exceptionally smooth hatchlings for the last 5 months or so. This is the info I'm trying to share with you and everyone else who will listen.

Here's the disclaimer: I've been keeping my juvenile sulcatta swampy wet for about two years now with no problems. I've raised my three sulcata hatchlings since mid-May as wet as I can keep them with no problems. I've been keeping my 36 pardalis pardalis hatchlings as wet as possible for around a month now with no problems whatsoever. Its working for me and its been working for several other too. A key element is keeping them warm, 80 or above, all the time. This is new territory and we are all experimenting and learning here. Proceed with caution. I CAN tell you that if you keep them dry, they will pyramid, just like they have for the last 3 decades.

For an in depth, exhaustive explanation read all of this:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding

...and all of this:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding-II-The-Leopards