Feeding legumes?

[biglove4bigtorts]

I have read all that I can find regarding keepers accounts of what they feed and also what few wild studies have concluded about Manouria diets in the wild. Wild many keepers choose to feed thier Manouria animal protein, studies of adults have revealed that they do not consume any appreciable animal matter. That being said, what I know of other forest dwelling species and what these studies left out, is that many of the juvenile tortoises eat protein and convert to a moslty vegetarian diet as adults. I don't want to deny my Manouria vital protein, but I am also not entirely comfortable feeding animal sources of protein. I am curious as to what the thoughts are regarding adding soaked split peas, lentils, chick peas, alfalfa and clover as 1/3 of the total offered meal two or three times a week to meet the higher protein needs and bypass any of the dangers of animal protein. I am not questioning or intending to discredit keepers that do chose to feed animal sources and have healthy tortoises, but my personal choice is to err on the side of caution. If this is best answered in the Manouria specific section, please feel free to move it.
Thanks In Advance

 

[Madkins007]

I have read all that I can find regarding keepers accounts of what they feed and also what few wild studies have concluded about Manouria diets in the wild. Wild many keepers choose to feed thier Manouria animal protein, studies of adults have revealed that they do not consume any appreciable animal matter. That being said, what I know of other forest dwelling species and what these studies left out, is that many of the juvenile tortoises eat protein and convert to a moslty vegetarian diet as adults. I don't want to deny my Manouria vital protein, but I am also not entirely comfortable feeding animal sources of protein. I am curious as to what the thoughts are regarding adding soaked split peas, lentils, chick peas, alfalfa and clover as 1/3 of the total offered meal two or three times a week to meet the higher protein needs and bypass any of the dangers of animal protein. I am not questioning or intending to discredit keepers that do chose to feed animal sources and have healthy tortoises, but my personal choice is to err on the side of caution. If this is best answered in the Manouria specific section, please feel free to move it.
Thanks In Advance

It is my understanding that most reptiles have a hard time digesting or getting the nutrients from legumes, grains, etc.

I do not know about Manuora specifically, but you are right that many species' protein needs change as they age- the meat proteins seem to help most in the pre-adult growth years, then become less important as physical growth slows.

 

[harris]

The only animal protein my group of 3 year old Manouria will touch is earthworms and slugs.

 

[Len B]

I have six Manouria tortoises they range in age from 3 years to 14 years of age,2 mep 6 and 14 years, both cb and 4 mee 2 are 3 years cb ,2 imports age unknown but both adults my first mep hatchling(1996) was fed pinkies several times a week for the first year,and less often as it aged The second mep was a yearling(hatched 2004) when I got it and it wasn't offered pinkies as often, It ate them but not as aggressive as the hatchling, and also I found out about Mazuri tortoise diet which I didn't know about in 1996, The yearling ate the Mazuri but to this day the older one will not eat it.I weighed them earlier this spring and they were 50 and 25 pounds. Still not 100% sure of sex of either of them.The first mee I got was a fresh import in 2001 and I got lucky and got a good one, never had a health problem with him.The second mee a female was sold as a long time captive, but wasn't. She was in bad shape,She is now doing great.The 3 year olds were hatched natural in the nest the rescued female built in Florida.Didn't offer the adult mee mice ,the mee hatchlings ate some pinkies the first year but not like like the mep hatchling but they both love Mazuri. Now the only one that will eat mice is the oldest mep,So I don't offer it to any of them anymore.The oldest mep will also eat more cuttle bone than the rest. I have a list of what I feed My Mountain tortoise's, I do seasonal feeding so what is in season is what they get at that time of year.They do not all eat all of these items but they are all offered them.----opuntia cactus 4 kinds, colocasia,alocasia,philodendron,strawberry fruit and plant,dandelion,cooked sweet potato,kale,celery,cantolope,sasa fras leaves,bell pepper,watermellon,pumpkin fruit and plant,blackberry,ginger leaves,mazuri tortoise diet,squash fruit and plant,cucmber fruit and plant,mulberry leaves,daylilly blooms,hibiscus,tomato,yucca leaves grown from the root sold at the store,corn,romaine lettuce,collards,rose blooms,carrot,banana,banana tree leaves and trunk,grass and weeds,clover,mushrooms,oranges,apple,pear,peach,plum,fig fruit and leaves,plantain both kinds the weed and the one that looks like a banana,cabbage, and if I get to the other house at the right time paw paw.I probably forgot some,This list is in no order and the amounts of each vary, Its just what I offer them at different times of the year.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again for this thread:

When I first moved here it was Autumn and I was too busy to worry about all my potted plants, so I just lined them up against the fence in the Manouria area. Every morning when I went out to feed and count heads, the pots were tipped over. I'd right them and next morning same thing. One morning I got out there early enough to see my second largest female dragging at a pot with a front foot, tipping it over and looking at the ground under the pot. My assumption was that she was bug/slug hunting.

The only animal protein I feed is hard boiled eggs and their shells about once a week. I don't feed any legumes, but occasionally I will give them whole corn on the cob. They will even eat the cob.

About 12 years ago I hatched out some Mee/Mep intergrades. I gave one of the babies to a friend up in Hayward and I get updates on the tortoise occasionally. He told me that he fed the hatchling night crawlers about twice a week. So I offered some to my Manouria, but they looked at me like they thought I was crazy.

It was interesting to note that Len offers his tortoises yucca occasionally. There is a yucca tree growing in my Manouria area and it is slowly being demolished and eaten. No small feat, because this is a fairy large yucca:

I don't know how they do it, but they break off the trunks of the smaller branches then eat the "bark" or stem of the plant. This mess on the ground is dead yucca leaves left over from the tortoises having eaten the stems of the plant:

(Is yucca a legume? LOL!)

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

Yvonne,
Thank you as always for replying...I always look forward to what you have to say. I do recall your story of the pots being tipped over and the Manouria hunting the worms, slugs, and other goodies underneath them. To answer your question about the Yucca, it is not a legume. Legumes are plants that fix nitrogen into the soil via absorbtion from the air and bacteria that live in nodes on the plant's roots. This is why legumes are higher in protein, though I am far from the best one to explain the chain from atmospheric nitrogen into plant proteins, but it happens..lol

I just am at a loss for what side I want to take on this. Here are some things I am considering that cause so much speculation.
Green Iguanas are known to accept animal protein and even chase after insects, the young igs in particular, but we know it is not good for them. Could this be the case with Manouria?

When I kept bearded dragons, the younger dragons ate mostly insects and gradually began to eat vegetation as they aged, with less and less protein being needed. Is this a good model to follow for raising other herps that may or may not consume animal protein in the wild, but seem to enjoy it in captivity?

Box turtles eat lots of insects and worms as babies, but they too change to mostly vegeatable and fruit eaters as adults. Hingebacks are the same way, IME. I don't have direct experience with redfoots or yellow foots, but I bet they fall in that line as well. Is this how I should treat my Manouria, since they most resemble these species in other ways?

I am currently setting up for a breeding pair of ornate Uromastyx lizards.
It is the popular opinion that insects are to be avoided, yet many offer them with no harm and the lizards enjoy them. Abnormaly slow growth rates are reported in captivity for CB animals and these are being fed all vegetarian diets.Should they to be treated like bearded drgons? Wild studie are few and like Manouria, they state that the adults are strict vegetarians.

I am leaning towards offering the leafy parts of legumes and avoiding heavy and potentially problematic beans and lentils for the torts and maybe even a bit of bee pollen twice weekly as a protein boost.

As for the Uromastyx, since they are adults, a vegetarian diet should be fine and most keepers advise feeding them ground legumes and dried seeds, they are already on track for having a ready source of protein. When I get uromastyx babies, I think that I will try the moderate approach and offer the babies some soldier fly larvae and gutloaded crickets twice a week and as less than 20% of their daily intake for that feeding. As they grow older, I will cut insects out altogether, except for gravid females, who will get the juvenile feeding rotation. They will also be in a large cage with ample room, so fatty liver and other concerns associated with animal protein are minimal. They will also be amply hydrated with all of the fresh greens they will be getting.

I wonder too, if the tolerance of animal protein for omnivorous reptiles is lessened by the lack of humidity. They do the same thing they used to do with tortoises...keep em dry as a bone. In the wild, just as tortoises do, the uros hole up in burrows or crevices...probably more humid than aloud in captive set-ups. Uros differ from tortoises in that they ARE active during the hottest parts of the day and retreat to the hides, when threatened or at night.

I love learning about reptile nutrition....it is the part I enjoy most about keeping reptiles...formulateing my own diets, based on what I learn and know already to be true. I have achieved some amazeing things with good nutrition in the past and I read everything I can concerning the subject.

 

[HLogic]

Animal & plant proteins differ in several aspects the most important of which is the amino acid ratios. A wide variety of plant protein is required to provide the same balance as would be found in almost any animal protein.

The issues with the seeds of legumes such as peas, lentils, etc. is phytates, trypsin inhibition and lectins. Phytates bind bivalent cations (e.g. calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc) and protein preventing their utilization. Trypsin inhibition prevents the hydrolysis of proteins. Lectins cause hemagglutination (clotting) in some cases to the point of toxicity (e.g. Castor bean and some kidney beans). The little ditty that goes, "Beans, beans are good for your heart..." is not entirely true! The safest legume to feed would be green beans - the entire plant being ideal. All of my torts relish them & receive them infrequently as a treat.

As far as protein supplementation, consider mushrooms. Their proteins are similar to animal proteins. They also contain trace elements that are generally not found in plant material. Most terrestrial turtles and tortoises greedily consume mushrooms and many prefer them slightly beyond 'fresh'. As they begin to decay, the cell walls are predigested, facilitating the absorption of the contents within.

In clarification, the yuca (Manihot esculenta), also known as cassava or manioc, that Len mentioned is not the same as yucca (Yucca sp.). Yuca, contains elevated concentrations of cyanogenic glucosides - particularly the root. It is widely cultivated for human consumption in tropical areas supplanting the potato as a carbohydrate source in these regions. It may be more familiar as tapioca to some... Yucca is an agave. Although some species bear edible fruits, seeds or flowers; the more typical use of agave is to concoct a beverage - one tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor!

In answer to the question of providing animal protein to Manouria, there is no harm in allowing a minor portion of the diet to be comprised of earthworms, slugs or pinky mice. As has been said many times, the real key is variety. If they will eat it, feed it but only as a portion of a widely varied diet.