Failing tortoise

[UrsusArctos]

I am so upset right now.

After a vet consultation, it appears our hatchling tortoise is failing due to her kidneys shutting down due to chronic dehydration.

I am seriously floored by this. Not only have we been soaking her every single day for 20 minutes or more, we also keep her environment moist, spray her with a water bottle, and keep a shallow dish of water in the environment of all time. She was pooping in her water almost every day so we know she had no problem accessing the water.

She's at the vet overnight but the vet warned it looks grim. I'm seriously upset. How can a tortoise die of dehydration when it is soaked every single day and always has water available?

 

[Tom]

How was it started before you got it? Kidney damage can happen so quickly and easily in a small tortoise, but it can take months for the problem to "surface". This is what happens when babies are started with the dry routine. Do you know how yours was started?

I did a thread about this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-23493.html

 

[UrsusArctos]

We've had ours since June. I believe she was 2-3 months old. The breeder we went to kept them in a tortoise table and she soaked them every day- so she said at least.. No reason to not believe her because the first time we visited they were all being soaked.

But our tortoise has had some problems. She had that eye infection which we treated two months or so ago, and after that she bounced back no problem but then started to keep her eyes shut more and more and be more lethargic. We kept her in natural outdoor sunlight for about 3 hours during the day in the summer with water available and shade, and now she has a MVB and a warm side and a cool side. With hides. Etc. We feel so bad. We've been making long term plans and counted on her being part of our life forever and we feel like we've failed her.

---

When we took her to the vet for her eyes 2 months ago he said she looked great- hard smooth shell, alert, voracious eater. Now her plastron is soft and she won't open her eyes or eat. We feel so terrible. Her food has always been supplemented too and we followed the suggestions here. Before going to the vet we tried the babyfood/bird vitamin soak a few times which she seems to enjoy (maybe?) but obviously didn't seem to encourage her to drink.

If water is always available is there any other underlying problem?

 

[Tom]

Open tortoise tables hold no humidity. Daily soaks should have helped, but imagine an earthworm living in the open table you saw at the breeders. Even if the breeder put the worm in water once a day, it would still desiccate on dry substrate under a hot bulb for the next 24 hours until soaking time again. Was there a humid hide? Damp substrate?

If she soaked everyday, I'll bet a larger percentage of her babies survived and did okay compared to someone else in the same scenario who soaked less often, but as you are unfortunately seeing, it wasn't enough. Three months on a dry table could do it. Also, I don't know where you are, but 3 hours outside for a tiny hatchling is too much in my opinion. Hatchlings don't usually do very well when kept outside for long periods daily, even in areas where the climate seems good for them.

I'm sorry to see you going through this.

 

[UrsusArctos]

Sigh... Well this is depressing. So much conflicting information. We kept our tortoise in a huge custom made glass tank to keep humidity up (inside) but kept her outside a few hours a day in a kiddie pool with moist substrate with partial sun (not full sun) in 90 degree heat with hides because the vet told us the very best thing to do is give access to natural sunlight. She seemed happy and healthy for so long!

I feel really bad because I specifically went to a local breeder instead of an online breeder because her tortoises we on site and didn't show signs of pyramiding and were kept in wonderful enclosures.

Poor little girl.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

These posts are always so hard to read. I am so very sorry. I hope, against all odds that your little one pulls through. If not, you did the best you could and perhaps baby had something it was born with that simply developed eventually. They are so fragile. Sigh.

 

[ForestExotics]

Was the tortoise actually drinking the water?

 

[wellington]

So sorry you have to go through this. It's always sad reading these threads. Don't blame yourself, it most likely all happened before you got her.

 

[UrsusArctos]

Was the tortoise actually drinking the water?

Who knows? Apparently not. Like I said- she was soaked daily and she almost always pooped in her water so I know she had no trouble getting into that shallow dish (and it was always cleaned out ASAP).

The vet administered some fluids and she's staying st the vet. We are prepared for her not to make it.

Thanks for your kind words

 

[Tom]

but kept her outside a few hours a day in a kiddie pool with moist substrate with partial sun (not full sun) in 90 degree heat with hides because the vet told us the very best thing to do is give access to natural sunlight.

Where are you? Your vet is not wrong, its just a question of how much time they spend outside and in what conditions. I would expect a different result in Phoenix compared to New Orleans, for example. My hatchlings go out for sunshine daily, but only for about an hour, and then back inside with a soak on the way. I don't think three hours a day outside would cause this problem if there were daily soaks and a warm humid environment inside.

---

I feel really bad because I specifically went to a local breeder instead of an online breeder because her tortoises we on site and didn't show signs of pyramiding and were kept in wonderful enclosures.

You mentioned the eye infection in another post. Many times I have seen eye problems with hatchling sulcatas housed in dry conditions. In fact my friend from Senegal said he had eye problems on a large scale in his breeding program until he started keeping the babies in irrigated enclosures full of plants and weeds. When they were housed in dry enclosures with dry substrate, he frequently saw eye issues. As soon as they were in damp enclosures with lots of greenery, the eye problems disappeared.

Here is another question for me to learn from your experience: Did your breeder use a brooder box as soon as they hatched, or did she leave them in the incubator on the incubation media while they absorbed their yolk sac? What incubation media did she use?

Pease let the breeder know what is going on so she can learn from the experience.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Thinking about your little sulcata and wishing, hoping for the best.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Oh no!!!! Praying for your little guy.
I just bought (well, buying) a baby from Tom. I only wanted one from Tom for this very reason, I trust him to have raised them perfectly. I'm so sorry thighs is happened. Not your fault, not at all.
Please keep us posted, and don't be angry with your breeder, please talk to them nicely. Educate them respectfully. I'm sure they love their hatchlings and do what they feel is right.

Hugs. I know this hurts.

Thank you for posting, it will help other tortoises in the future. I promise.

 

[UrsusArctos]

Just to update you guys: She's home. She seems betterish. Still lethargic, but she opened her eyes and we just got some spring mix in her (with calcium supplement). It's nice to see her eating. Gave her a long soak too- but didn't see her drink anything.

Should we increase the temperature and the humidity while she tries to recover? To what temperature?

 

[sibi]

I suspected that she would improve some. I didn't think for a moment that she was a gonna. If she's in her enclosure, Tom's suggestions is to have the 4 temps: cool side, hide, basking spot, ambient temps. At no time should the enclosure be less than 80 degrees. Cool side should then be 80 degrees, hide/night 90-95, basking 100-105, ambient(whole enclosure) no less than 80 degrees. Humidity should be kept at 80% Soak her 2-3 times a day. I often put Pedialyte with baby carrot food in the soaks if I think they are dehydrated. You don't often see them drink, but if you raise the water level up to they chin, they often have their mouth in the water, although you can't see that they open it ever so slightly and let water in.
Spring Mix is ok, but it often has lots of spinach in it and that's not so good. I would buy kale, turnips, collards, weeds, cut up grass (pesticide free), hibiscus flower and leaves, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, cactus pads, etc. If she doesn't seem to want to eat, soak some mazuri in electrolytes and hand feed it to her. Keep us posted.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

I'm so happy for you!!

I know she's not out of the woods yet, and the next 24 hours will be very telling. With adults we increase temps (warm and cool side) about 10°, and increase humidity if possible.
Decrease handling, increase variety of foods offered. With adults a vitamin/mineral supplement is recommended, not sure with babies.....I'm sure Tom with chime in. I'm admittedly not experienced with babies, we never see them in practice. Only adults.
But I'm learning.

I'm also pleased to announce that my hospital is now listed as one of TFOs "Tortoise Friendly" Veterinary Hospitals. . Yay us!!


Sandy
Oregon/washington Tortoise Rescue