Enclosure/Substrate help

[Seiryu]

So i've been reading around and need a bit more info on some things. I decided on a Leopard Tortoise. Waiting for a breeder to contact me when his are ready. A lot of questions, sorry in advance!

In terms of Substrate for Leopards. I've read 50/50 Eco-Earth and Play Sand is a good way to go. Is this true, anyone that has Leopards tell me what they use?

When someone says "50/50" I imagine it means mixing it all up, or does it mean half enclosure is eco-earth, half is Play sand?

I also read to hydrate the eco-earth and then squeeze out access water. Do I do that with a squirt bottle then? And how often should I do this?

I know Leopards like dry arid climates. What humidity levels are I looking to keep the enclosure at? 20-40%? I also read a few times that low humidity can cause pyramiding too, which is why I want to be careful as well.

And I plan (for the outdoor one), to use the pressure treated wood, that doesn't rot in rains and bugs hate it! Is this okay? I do not know if it's Pine or what type of tree it is.

And lastly. I read people lining their enclosures with things. Using a shower curtain or liner is what I read. It says for easy substrate changes, but I imagine I keep the liner and just get rid of the substrate then?

Thanks! Just want to make sure I have everything correct.

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: Enclosure/Substrate qhelp

When you purchase the coconut coir (eco-earth) it comes in a compressed brick. You place the brick in the 5 gallon bucket of warm water and leave it until the brick is all dissolved. Then you drain off the water and mix it with the same amount of sand. All mixed up together.

Yvonne

 

[Seiryu]

RE: Enclosure/Substrate qhelp

When you purchase the coconut coir (eco-earth) it comes in a compressed brick. You place the brick in the 5 gallon bucket of warm water and leave it until the brick is all dissolved. Then you drain off the water and mix it with the same amount of sand. All mixed up together.

Yvonne

Thanks! is this a good substrate to use? Doesn't cause digestion problems? And if anyone could answer the other questions it'd be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Yes it's good substrate, but of course a manner of personal opinion. Neither I or my tort like it, but I know a ton of people that use it with great success. It's recommended for those starting out for ease of use and because it's a moist substrate. You may want less than 50% sand (I've heard even 20-30% estimate). See how it looks to you, and you can always add more sand later but it's hard to take it out! Most torts don't like to eat it, but if they do, it is safe and shouldn't cause impaction.

Once the substrate is in the enclosure (you probably want to let it dry a tad before placing it in the enclosure, even after wringing it out), you could use a squirt bottle. Most however find that they need to actually pour water on the substrate and mix it up every couple days or as needed, especially under heat sources. The squirt bottle also tends to splatter the water instead of having an even amount of moisture. The hot lights really dry things out. You don't need to think too much about numbers for humidity; it's hard to measure anyways as you want substrate humidity not ambient/air humidity. Just keep it moist but not wet. You should not be able to wring out water, but you should feel the moisture in it. Yes, humidity has been found to be key in preventing pyramiding.

Treated wood is fine as long as it doesn't have anything toxic in it; I think any wood from a lumbar yard or Home Depot is treated actually. I used Pine; it's just pine/cedar/aromatic wood substrate that is bad because of the oils and such. The actual wood is ok to use whatever. Yes, use a liner such as pond liner, shower pan liner, or a heavy duty shower curtain. This is because you don't want to wood to be damp. Also, you can wipe it out. Thirdly, sand and bits of substrate would otherwise fall through the cracks in a typical homemade tort table. You change out the substrate as needed every few months (in addition to spot cleaning), but keep the liner. It's there to help you. If you get a heavy duty liner it should last as long as the table.

Hope that answered everything! Best wishes.

 

[Seiryu]

Thanks Tortoise!

I just wanted to make sure the Pressure Treated stuff was ok, since it won't rot. What substrate do you use if you don't use the eco-earth/sand?

 

[tortoisenerd]

I use aspen. We're in a damp environment so the moist substrate just didn't work for us. If I had a breed that was more prone to pyramiding, I might have put more work into it, but the aspen is just nice and easy for us. The little guy loves it too! It's a lot lighter and less messy for an apartment. But yes, I agree for a leopard you need the moist substrate. I've just seen so many pyramided torts (that are otherwise taken care of great besides the humidity) and it seems to make a huge difference. I think I have only seen 2 pyramided russian torts though....and those were pretty extreme poor care cases.

---

Oh, and my vet was also worried about the little strands getting caught on him around his neck and such. She said to use newspaper! but we compromised on aspen. Newspaper is bad because sometimes the leg muscles can't develop right, and they can't burrow. Trevor loves to burrow. The newspaper thing is the only one I've ever disagreed with her on. Great for hospital settings (or paper towels), but that's about it.

 

[Seiryu]

In terms of the substrate. When you said "Most however find that they need to actually pour water on the substrate and mix it up every couple days or as needed" Does this mean every 2-5 days (depending on dryness), I will have to take all the substrate out, dampen it. Then put it back in? Or is there a way to moisten the substrate without taking it all out? I have other tanks I could move the tortoise to while I did this.

And I live in michigan and our April-October climates change drastically. It rained 2 days straight, then the next day it was 85 F or more. Which made the humidity in my lizard room about 50%. Which is great for them, not so much the Leopard

If the room is at 40-50% that does NOT mean the substrate is right? Looks like I may need to be a dehumidifier.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Pour a pitcher or cup of water on it and use your hands or a scoop (I use a dog food scoop I got for $2 from Target for my substrate stuff) to mix up, or whatever works for you. You shouldn't need to take it out at all to add water! If you don't add water it will dry out and negate the reason you use moist substrate. The only time you take all the substrate out is when you do a complete change as needed (such as every few months). You should just be able to do the side the tort is not on, then move the tort to the other side or something. Also, water may only need to be added directly under a heat/light source, maybe not the entire enclosure (depending on room humidity, temperature, if any of the enclosure is covered, etc). It depends on how fast it dries out.

Actually that humidity is great for the Leopard! You need that to prevent pyramiding in my opinion; read up on causes of pyramiding and you will see that lack of humidity is considered number 1. Most people keep them way too dry but in fact they need that for smooth shell growth. To measure substrate humidity you measure at the level the tort is (place the gauge on the substrate and then take it away after you get a measurement), not the air.

If you hang it on the wall of the enclosure you will get air humidity (people commonly make this mistake by putting their humidity and temperature gauges on the sides when in fact you should never mount anything and always measure at the substrate level in various spots in the enclosure to get an idea of the range). The two numbers will differ, air and substrate, and you can never get a completely accurate substrate humidity measurement either with a cheap guage (temperature is easier to get an accurate reading with limited equipment).

You don't want a dehumidifier. You want humidity for the Leopard (thus why you use the substrate moist without keeping it wet, just slightly damp for them). The substrate should feel damp to the touch but still warm (damp and warm is good while damp and cold is bad), and should not have water drip out of you pick up a handful and squeeze it.

If the substrate does get too moist when you rehydrate it, then don't put the tort in right away. Wait a bit for it to dry out. This is a reason you should add the water a little at a time.

Best wishes.

 

[Seiryu]

Ok cool thanks. I did read on a site, over 70% for Leopards can cause respiratory issues. So that's why I wanted to ask the specifics.

As an example test: Room humidity is 50%. Then I check the tort level humidity in the enclosure. See what it is. If it's 40-60% , do I need to do dampen the substrate at all? It's of course going to dry out faster under the 90-92 F heat (from the heat bulb), but the other side temps will be the room temp (75-80 F) and the Tort Level humidity for that side should be the rooms roughly.

I don't think I want anything over 60%.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Yeah I agree you don't want really high, but times of 50-60% are great. There will be times with the heat running it will get very dry for example (I've heard as low as 10% in a house). I would go off of more how the substrate feels (damp vs. dry) than the humidity at the substrate all the time. If the substrate right under the bulb is dry, then just add water right there for example. I don't think you need to focus so much on the percentages as long as you have an idea of what is going on. It varies in the wild too!

 

[Seiryu]

Instead of making a new post. The eco-earth 1 pack, just comes with 1 brick right?

I have a 4x1.5 enclosure. I figured I'd go 2-3" deep of a 70% eco-earth / 30% play sand substrate.

Is 1 brick enough to fill that kind of size? Or should I just get like 3-6 bricks on hand anyways.