Devastated...found two babies dead!

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sibi

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I always thought it was a rat from the beginning. The pic of the culprit looks like a smaller rat to me. It's way too large to be a mouse. And there may be more! What if that was a baby rat? Where is the rest of the family or its mother? If the mom is nearby, you will lose more torts unless the enclosure is completely vermin proof.
 

sunshine_hugs

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Kim444 said:
While I do understand your need to capture whatever it is that killed your torts, even if you trap and kill 5 rats, who is to say more won't appear. All it takes is one night without a trap and it could happen again. Can you section off a place to leave them overnight with a protective cover, like metal screening. I know rats can't chew through metal.

That's exactly that we're working on....I've started already. :)


What we trapped sounds like a "roof rat" from the info that WillTortoise posted. I had many more traps set last night, all baited with meat, but caught nothing.

A possum is still not out of the question, as I've seen them before. We have two different types of possum here...the common opossum, and a pygmy possum (it's the size of a mouse...I've only seen one that someone trapped and had as a pet, but I've been told they can be a nuisance).

I will continue to set traps all around the enclosure.

Also, does anyone have any ideas as to why Gruffalo would have died? He died during the day (was normal in the morning), and was untouched when I found him. It was like he was suddenly poisoned or something. Could he have died from feeding on Riddle (obviously he wasn't what ate most of her, but I have a feeling he still fed on a bit)?
 

Pokeymeg

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Gruffalo's unexplained death makes me wonder if something else killed your poor babies (something they ingested perhaps) and the rat was simply being opportunistic? :(

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sunshine_hugs

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Pokeymeg said:
Gruffalo's unexplained death makes me wonder if something else killed your poor babies (something they ingested perhaps) and the rat was simply being opportunistic? :(

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I'm suspicious of that as well. I actually pulled up every plant / weed in their enclosure, and have started replanting things I know are safe.

We regularly have Cane Toads in their enclosure, and it particularly liked one of the hides...not sure if one of them had a run-in with the cane toad (they basically seemed to avoid each other and do their own thing that I saw).

Anyway, it will probably remain a mystery.
 

sunshine_hugs

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We've continued to have empty traps, and we have tons set. I've even tried different kids of meats.

BUT, I did get some crazy news. My landlady stopped by this afternoon, and told me she had the yard sprayed for ticks on Monday!! She said she told them about the tortoise pen (it's quite separate from the grassy part of the yard...difficult to explain), and the guy told her it was pet friendly stuff.

I'm home 90% of the time, but happened to be out for a few hours on Monday morning...and it was Monday, just after noon, that I found Gruffalo and Riddle. So, could be a coincidence, but I'm thinking it's the tick stuff. Thankfully that rest of the torts are doing well.

The yearlings, Hiccup & Pickles, are back in their pen. Their sleep box is now solid and secure. The hatchlings are still living in the bin right now.

My landlady also informed us that they will be spraying for termites (the house has termites for sure)....so, I have a friend that is going to keep all my tortoises for a couple of weeks. He has a beautiful, very large, secure enclosure....and we got our hatchlings from the same couple...five of them are clutch mates (2 of his, and 3 of mine).

I'm also relocating all of my potted plants (like the hibiscus, and rose, and my herbs and veggies). I've never lived in a house that's been sprayed with chemicals, so this is all new to me. I have kids, dogs, and tortoises...I would opt out of spraying (like, for ticks) if they gave me a choice.

So, that's where we're at. I'm still setting traps every night, and will continue to for a while.
 

Beck

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Oh wow! What may be pet friendly for a 5lb dog, may not be friendly to a 3oz baby tortoise. This may be one of the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I'm sorry again for your loss.

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Levi the Leopard

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And "pet friendly" for a dog who walks on the grass is different than for a turtle who EATS the grass.

Sorry for your losses.
I think the tick spray is an important factor in solving what happened.

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yagyujubei

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It's surprising to me that insecticide spraying was scheduled by the landlady without first informing you, knowing about your pets. I would be sure to let her know that just a few hours later, two of your pets were dead. I think we have our explanation.
 

sissyofone

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Sounds like maybe the insecticide maybe to blame. I dont understand why your landlord didnt make you aware of this. :( If thats what happened rats and mice are opportunistic and probably came along and fed on riddle afterwards. May i ask what makes you think Gruffalo (i think i spelled that right) was feeding on Riddle? I ask because i had no idea theyd do that.
 

Tjbemis

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I'm so sorry for your loss! Could Gruffalo have been bitten the previous day, when the other one was injured? You might not see a small rat bite, but it would surely kill a baby tort from infection w/in a day. Just a thought, the not knowing would drive me crazy too.

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sunshine_hugs

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sissyofone said:
Sounds like maybe the insecticide maybe to blame. I dont understand why your landlord didnt make you aware of this. :( If thats what happened rats and mice are opportunistic and probably came along and fed on riddle afterwards. May i ask what makes you think Gruffalo (i think i spelled that right) was feeding on Riddle? I ask because i had no idea theyd do that.


yagyujubei said:
It's surprising to me that insecticide spraying was scheduled by the landlady without first informing you, knowing about your pets. I would be sure to let her know that just a few hours later, two of your pets were dead. I think we have our explanation.

Well, we live in the Caribbean, so normal rules don't really apply. I believe my landlady was trying to do something nice, but maybe didn't understand the full effect her actions could have. We're actually fortunate that we she's an animal lover...it's not overly common to find here.

I did tell her about Riddle and Gruffalo....she seemed confused (she's kind of old :)), but apologized if it was the tick spray. She said the guys stayed away from that area completely (we have a very large yard, and there is a huge cement wall separating the area that was sprayed, and the area where the tortoise pen is).

I'm sure the stuff can carry with the wind?


Tjbemis said:
I'm so sorry for your loss! Could Gruffalo have been bitten the previous day, when the other one was injured? You might not see a small rat bite, but it would surely kill a baby tort from infection w/in a day. Just a thought, the not knowing would drive me crazy too.

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It is possible. We actually caught another mouse / small rat this morning. My husband disposed of it before I woke up, so I didn't get to see it (he said it was small, but got caught in the rat trap, so was mangled...I wouldn't have wanted to see it).

The thing about the tick stuff that doesn't add up for sure, is that when I found Riddle eaten, it seemed like she wasn't freshly dead (sorry if this is too much info)...like she had been there for at least a few hours, minimum. The yard was sprayed sometime within a 3 hour window (that's how long I was away from home)...this mouse / rat seems to come early in the a.m (shortly before sunrise)...I think Riddle died overnight, from whatever got at her shell the day before.

Anyway, like I said, this will probably always remain a mystery....we have many theories, but can't prove any of them for sure.


Oh, and sissyofone, I don't know that Gruffalo fed on Riddle for sure. I have heard from other keepers that tortoises will feed on carrion...including a dead tortoise (the people we got the hatchlings from, keep about 50 redfoots...they had told me a story of when one died, how the others ate him....they were all fine).
Gruffalo was a piggy...he loved food, and would actively seek out protein sources, like snails, millipedes, etc. He was my most active little one. It's definitely just an assumption on my part.
 

sibi

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There is one thing you can do that would require a little research on your part, but it can prove to be beneficial. Ask the old lady to give you the name of the company who put down the insecticide. Then ask the company to give you the main chemical ingredients, unless you already know it. Then get on the internet and find out if those chemicals in trace amounts could kill a 3 ounce baby tort, or post it here where some of our specialists could confirm the results. I think you may find your answer definitively.
 

sunshine_hugs

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sibi said:
There is one thing you can do that would require a little research on your part, but it can prove to be beneficial. Ask the old lady to give you the name of the company who put down the insecticide. Then ask the company to give you the main chemical ingredients, unless you already know it. Then get on the internet and find out if those chemicals in trace amounts could kill a 3 ounce baby tort, or post it here where some of our specialists could confirm the results. I think you may find your answer definitively.


Thanks Sylvia. I can definitely do that. Since we're in the Caribbean, everything takes a little longer, but would be worth the peace of mind.
 

yagyujubei

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It would be interesting to see. US companies still sell DDT to third world countries. I'm not saying that Grenada is third world, but I'm sure the restrictions differ.
 

sunshine_hugs

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yagyujubei said:
It would be interesting to see. US companies still sell DDT to third world countries. I'm not saying that Grenada is third world, but I'm sure the restrictions differ.


I actually believe it's still considered third world (or a "developing country"). There are not many restrictions here at all. I'm not very curious about the apparent "pet friendly" pesticide that was used.
 

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if you want to catch rats or mice you need to use peanut butter, that's the best recipe they come with in 1 hour

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AnnV

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That looked like a white footed mouse. My barn is full of them and my cat brings them and leaves them on our doorstep.
Mice could have done the damage you described, but I can't imagine they would be the killers.

Ann from CT
 
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